New citizenship rules

[iceman010899]

hey,

I've read all the topics on this subject and still dont undertand what will happen to the 100,000's of ILR holders when the new citizenship rules comes in next year !

Will current ILR holders somehow be effected ???? Can we remain as permanent residents ?? OR will the new rules matter when we apply for citizenship ??

The BIA website quotes "On 20 February 2008 the Government published the Green Paper 'The Path to Citizenship: Next Steps in Reforming the Immigration System'. In this document we outlined our proposals for changing the way that someone can become a British citizen or remain here as a permanent resident"

Thanks.

[dnicky]

Well with the current announcements from BIA and the released artefacts, there is nothing much one can conclude. It will become more clearer as we near the implementation schedule i.e. late 2009 as mentioned on BIA website.

[iceman010899]

Hey,

They might revoke everyone's ILR and asked to join the new system.

Curret ILR holders become probationary citizens ??

Hope not.

[iceman010899]

Hi,

Draft bill has been published. Does not say anthing about current ILR holders or transitional agreements.

What are your views on current ILR holders being switched to probationary citizenship or more like further temporary leave.

Does anyone else know anthing else ?

[republique]

hey,

I've read all the topics on this subject and still dont undertand what will happen to the 100,000's of ILR holders when the new citizenship rules comes in next year !

Will current ILR holders somehow be effected ???? Can we remain as permanent residents ?? OR will the new rules matter when we apply for citizenship ??

The BIA website quotes "On 20 February 2008 the Government published the Green Paper 'The Path to Citizenship: Next Steps in Reforming the Immigration System'. In this document we outlined our proposals for changing the way that someone can become a British citizen or remain here as a permanent resident"

Thanks.

What are you going on about? IF ILR is the same thing as a permanent resident and that is the ultimate goal, they why do you think your ILR is in jeopardy. There are so many threads on this, it would help if you would read through them because people like you start a panic by being so lacksidasical in your thinking process

[dnicky]

IF ILR is the same thing as a permanent resident and that is the ultimate goal, they why do you think your ILR is in jeopardy.

I agree with the above. There is no way that UKBA can and will revoke already granted ILRs. At worst there could be some transitional arrangements that may be put in place for existing ILR holders to get to the naturalization stage, but my (optimistic) guess is that under the new rules existing ILR holders will still qualify for naturalization on the existing rules.

[paulp]

There are lots of old people on ILR who never bothered to get naturalised. I wonder what will happen to them?

[aboudi]

Would these rules clash with EU directives which gives EU family members permanent residence after 5 years?

[tobiashomer]

I think the Borders website makes it pretty clear that the old rules will apply until late 2009:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... ishcitizen

and that until late 2009, "existing arrangements for naturalisation will apply". As this section is for people who do or will qualify for naturalisation, that means, or at least includes, those who currently have ILR.

THEREFORE is you qualify no, or will by late 2009, then apply as soon as you can. If you must, or do, wait until the new rules take effect, you will have to apply under some form of the new rules, and God knows how they will apply them then! things are getting more xenophobic by the day, the new Immigration Minister made his career scaremongering about immigrants and the need to purify the nation...

[jei2]

hey,

I've read all the topics on this subject and still dont undertand what will happen to the 100,000's of ILR holders when the new citizenship rules comes in next year !

Will current ILR holders somehow be effected ???? Can we remain as permanent residents ?? OR will the new rules matter when we apply for citizenship ??

The BIA website quotes "On 20 February 2008 the Government published the Green Paper 'The Path to Citizenship: Next Steps in Reforming the Immigration System'. In this document we outlined our proposals for changing the way that someone can become a British citizen or remain here as a permanent resident"

Thanks.

What are you going on about? IF ILR is the same thing as a permanent resident and that is the ultimate goal, they why do you think your ILR is in jeopardy. There are so many threads on this, it would help if you would read through them because people like you start a panic by being so lacksidasical in your thinking process

I disagree. It's an open question, the kind that makes sure these nitpicking issues are brought to light and ironed out. We only need to look over some of the legislation in recent years to see how whimsical the government can be where immigration is concerned. Theoretically one could say it wouldn't happen, but throw in the mix of confused landlords and employers.. and it becomes a lot more chaotic.

I know of one company for example, that dismissed all its ILR holders under the premise that they didn't have the right to work. Such scenarios tend to put more pressure on the victim to apply for citizenship (if they can get it) than on the employers to understand the right to work requirements.

The harsh truth is that right now the government is more concerned with pacifying certain parts of the electorate and we have a new Immigration Minister.

No-one here knows exactly what's going to happen and all people are really doing is expressing opinions, concerns, expectations and hopes.

What's wrong with that?

[republique]

I know of one company for example, that dismissed all its ILR holders under the premise that they didn't have the right to work. Such scenarios tend to put more pressure on the victim to apply for citizenship (if they can get it) than on the employers to understand the right to work requirements.

The harsh truth is that right now the government is more concerned with pacifying certain parts of the electorate and we have a new Immigration Minister.

No-one here knows exactly what's going to happen and all people are really doing is expressing opinions, concerns, expectations and hopes.

What's wrong with that?

Well first of all, if the company dismissed someone with ILR bc they don't understand the rules, then they can be sued. Second, just because a company is so ignorant does not mean the HO will somehow forget the purpose of their own visas. Third whatever the govt concerns and the resulting changing of the route to citizenship, it doesn't change the fact that an ILR is a permanent resident permit. Full stop. So I completely disagree that it is an open question as to ILR. There is no need to worry that somehow your ILR is going to be somehow revoked or discounted. Yes, people can express opinions but it behooves them to read and understand the proposals being put up and NOT throw up reckless beliefs based on not reading the proposals or by failing to read them thoroughly. You must be responsible in discussing your concerns by not creating a panic based on ignorance. It is the same thing as yelling Fire when there is no smoke but because someone simply used a match to smoke a cigarette.

[Frontier Mole]

ILR will be what is states "indefinite leave to remain" for ever and a day. No one is going to wholesale revoke ILR - that would not achieve anything other than a 5 year back log in the courts!

That leaves two questions-
1. Will ILR be available after the introduction of the new rules for those currently in the system?
My personal belief is that once the drawbridge is lifted there is not going to be the current routes to ILR. Those on their probationary period for spouse will have to qualify via the new routes. The Government learned from the 4 to 5 year WP ILR mess that it now has to be clear on what it intends when it changes to the new rules. I fully expect there to be NO transitional set up.

2. What will be the long term future for those currently with ILR and not intending to naturalize?
I believe there will be a drive to incentivise those who have not gone for naturalisation to do so. I point to the tax position that now affects non domiciled individuals in the UK. More of the same I am sure will be planned. Measures will be brought in to encourage you to jump one way or the other. I think the idea is to make you decide what way your bread is buttered on. Integrate or lose out seems to be the message. If you will not commit to the UK, the UK will not commit to you. A simple but effective way of pushing people down the line of becoming a Brit Cit.

[jei2]

republique,

My point was that iceman was posing an open question for someone to answer rather than trying to cause panic. A potential two tier ILR system, transitional protection, probationary citizenship, are issues which should be discussed if individuals are to understand their position fully.

The issue of companies sacking those with ILR is not an argument for the government making changes. It's simply an illustration of the problems that could arise from the confusion. Not every one is going to run to an employment tribunal, even assuming that they know their rights. Likewise landlords who ask to see a British passport before renting property.

These are the practical concerns that the new rules will bring and which I believe could create as others have stated (and despite the apparent permanency of ILR status), a carrot and stick pressure towards applying for citizenship.

[republique]

republique,

My point was that iceman was posing an open question for someone to answer rather than trying to cause panic. A potential two tier ILR system, transitional protection, probationary citizenship, are issues which should be discussed if individuals are to understand their position fully.
And like I said, try to not be so lazy in one's thought process to cause undue anxiety. Sure discuss it but it is pretty clear ILR is not going to be suddenly invalid once you have acquired it.

The issue of companies sacking those with ILR is not an argument for the government making changes. It's simply an illustration of the problems that could arise from the confusion. Not every one is going to run to an employment tribunal, even assuming that they know their rights. Likewise landlords who ask to see a British passport before renting property.
That is very extreme. And a good way to create undue anxiety intentioned or not. There is no way landlords would only rent to people with British passports, then there would be no one else to rip off and as for companies sacking people ILR, again just as silly. If you are fired, you get unemployment and if sacked wrongly that is a fantastically wonderful lawsuit in your favour. HR reps are not so ill informed.

These are the practical concerns that the new rules will bring and which I believe could create as others have stated (and despite the apparent permanency of ILR status), a carrot and stick pressure towards applying for citizenship.

It isn't apparent. It is permanent. FULL STOP.

[Shan12]

Pg 14 of the Government response to the Path to Citizenship quite clearly says:

" Permanent residence
• Indefinite leave to
remain in the UK
• Can switch to
Citizenship at a later
date"

http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

[misha06]

From what I can gather the ILR step will remain essentially unchanged but there will be more emphasis on 'encouraging' people to apply for naturalisation.

I also believe that there are some measures being proposed whereby people wishing to gain citizenship have to demonstate some activity in their community.

[Casa]

And unlike ILR, Probationary Citizenship can be revoked and won't give guaranteed 'permanency'.
The Green Paper also implies that community or charity work would need to be undertaken for a minimum of 1 year to qualify for the reduction in
waiting time for ILR.

[Shan12]

No, it doesn't.

pg 18 http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

"The majority of respondents did not support the
idea of making active citizenship a mandatory
requirement. We agree and our proposal will remain
that active citizenship will be a means to speed
up progress and not a mandatory requirement
for citizenship.

We believe it is right that people should be able to
demonstrate active citizenship at any point in their
journey. This will allow migrants to plan activities
better in line with work and family commitments. We
also want to ensure that we permit a wide range of
activities to ensure migrants can use their particular
skills and interests.
Having settled the principle, we think there is more
to do to assess the level of commitment we should
expect from migrants. In particular, we will want to
spend time designing a light-touch regime that is safe
against potential abuse.
We will therefore establish a design group, including
representatives from local government and the third
sector to help us identify the most effective and
practical way of implementing this proposal. The
design group will identify proposals for the range
of activities, the level of commitment and the most
appropriate way we can verify that activities have
taken place. We will establish the design group over
the summer.
We will include provision in the draft (partial)
Immigration and Citizenship Bill to enable the
journey to citizenship to be speeded up where this
requirement is demonstrated, but will not enforce
active citizenship as a mandatory requirement."

[sarah08]

Jei2 wrote:
No-one here knows exactly what's going to happen and all people are really doing is expressing opinions, concerns, expectations and hopes.

What's wrong with that?.


100% agree with you Jei2. We are all guessing what would happen in the future which do make us feel better after expressing our opinions or reading something optimistic, and there is obsolutely nothing wrong with it!
I will be eligible to apply for naturalisation in later June 2009 So anything about new rules interests me and I am glad to find this Forum. You know the worst thing is waiting without knowning the result. Therefore we do need something or someone to build up our hopes.

Regards to companies dismissed someone with ILR , I do believe that those who are from outside of uk ( without uk passport) would be the first one to be paid off.

[Casa]

I didn't suggest that charity or community work would be mandatory.
Simply that in order not to have the qualifying period extended by yet another year (i.e 4 years for spouses, 6 years for others), you would need to show that you had met this condition by working voluntarily for a minimum of 1 year. So not much to be gained if you are close to your qualifying date for BC when the rules change and you then have to start
12 months of voluntary work...you'd still be a year away. Back to square one.
If I've lost anyone, I can understand...it is Friday afternoon!

[jei2]

republique,

My point was that iceman was posing an open question for someone to answer rather than trying to cause panic. A potential two tier ILR system, transitional protection, probationary citizenship, are issues which should be discussed if individuals are to understand their position fully.
And like I said, try to not be so lazy in one's thought process to cause undue anxiety. Sure discuss it but it is pretty clear ILR is not going to be suddenly invalid once you have acquired it.

The issue of companies sacking those with ILR is not an argument for the government making changes. It's simply an illustration of the problems that could arise from the confusion. Not every one is going to run to an employment tribunal, even assuming that they know their rights. Likewise landlords who ask to see a British passport before renting property.
That is very extreme. And a good way to create undue anxiety intentioned or not. There is no way landlords would only rent to people with British passports, then there would be no one else to rip off and as for companies sacking people ILR, again just as silly. If you are fired, you get unemployment and if sacked wrongly that is a fantastically wonderful lawsuit in your favour. HR reps are not so ill informed.

These are the practical concerns that the new rules will bring and which I believe could create as others have stated (and despite the apparent permanency of ILR status), a carrot and stick pressure towards applying for citizenship.

It isn't apparent. It is permanent. FULL STOP.

republique,

Let me make myself clear.

This is not supposition; these things are already happening.

For my part, the permanency of ILR is not on the witness stand - only what it signifies to external agencies. Sadly not all of us here will have your gargantuan powers of reasoning.

My point remains that those who have control over the everyday lives of other people ie landlords, employers, banks may not all understand the complexities of ILR.

Moreover if people are being pushed towards British citizenship then ILR will become at worst seen as a transitory status, and at best part of a two tier system.

The introduction of PBS will most certainly result in difficulties unless the Home Office provide greater clarification to employers about who has the right to work, inlcuding those with ILR.

This is a forum for sharing information, and for clarifying issues and concerns. Accusing others of attempting to create panic for raising theirs is pointless and repressive.

[Christophe]

To be fair, the Home Office advice to employers about the right of people with ILR to work in the UK is pretty clear. It would be a stupid employer who laid off staff with ILR on the basis that ILR holders didn't have the right to employment in the UK — it could also be, of course, that the employer was simply being disingenuous and hoping that none of the laid-off staff would pursue the matter (and I desperately hope that the laid-off staff in the situation you mentioned earlier did pursue the matter).

The current proposals from the Home Office about probationary citizenship etc would make the whole situation less clear (for everyone), in my opinion, with the different strands, multiple pathways to citizenship, and varying timetables that it entails. The present government (it seems to me) has taken what was basically a straightforward and workable system, mismanaged it for some years and then, on the back of that mismanagement, decided that the system doesn't work... I suspect that they area also blaming the current system for other problems that have nothing directly to do with the system per se.

Ah well, don't get me started.

[jei2]

To be fair, the Home Office advice to employers about the right of people with ILR to work in the UK is pretty clear. It would be a stupid employer who laid off staff with ILR on the basis that ILR holders didn't have the right to employment in the UK — it could also be, of course, that the employer was simply being disingenuous and hoping that none of the laid-off staff would pursue the matter (and I desperately hope that the laid-off staff in the situation you mentioned earlier did pursue the matter).
(

Fair point.

However I think the government needs to highlight the employment (not just the permission) rights of workers with ILR rather than frightening employers into dumping workers wholesale. Those hurdle adverts for example could be run alongside others with doors opening to individuals holding the correct documents which a close up on the documents themselves. (hey, nobody steal my idea!)

Some have tried to pursue the matter - only to find that employment lawyers aren't clear on their position either. You'd be amazed at the level of ignorance out there.

But no doubt not all employers are stupid and some probably do have their own agenda. Now don't get me started.

[Christophe]

Some have tried to pursue the matter - only to find that employment lawyers aren't clear on their position either. You'd be amazed at the level of ignorance out there.

In that case, to state the obvious, a different lawyer is needed. Perhaps one that specialises in immigration matters would be better...

[republique]

republique,

Let me make myself clear.

This is not supposition; these things are already happening.

For my part, the permanency of ILR is not on the witness stand - only what it signifies to external agencies. Sadly not all of us here will have your gargantuan powers of reasoning.

My point remains that those who have control over the everyday lives of other people ie landlords, employers, banks may not all understand the complexities of ILR.

Moreover if people are being pushed towards British citizenship then ILR will become at worst seen as a transitory status, and at best part of a two tier system.

The introduction of PBS will most certainly result in difficulties unless the Home Office provide greater clarification to employers about who has the right to work, inlcuding those with ILR.

This is a forum for sharing information, and for clarifying issues and concerns. Accusing others of attempting to create panic for raising theirs is pointless and repressive.

None of that stuff detracts from the fact that ILR is Permanent and indicating otherwise which many posts have not just implied but have just said outright is inappropriate.
As for these things already happening, many things are happening and like many things you have to deal with it as it comes. It is not at some record level that I would call it a phenomena of some sort.
And stop with this boo hoo stuff that we are sharing info, Yeah sure share info. No problem but do not belabor facts that do not exist. ILR is permanent. If employers are doing wrong, than the issue is employers are doing wrong or as you just mentionned the HO should do better advertising. NOT ILR is in jeopardy. It isn't so move on from that point.