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Just being in a relationship isn't enough. The relationship needs to be akin to marriage. What that means isn't always clear cut, but grosso modo,englishgreek wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:56 am4. Since we are not married or in a civil partnership, but have been in a relationship for 2+ years, what kind of proof of this relationship would suffice?
Thank you that is of course a good call and something we should have looked into before. She will refrain from any job applications until we sort this out. How would Surringer Singh change things? And are there any others here on this forum that might have more info on what might be required specifically for me to prove I had a reason to be late with this application?alterhase58 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:54 pmCan't assist with your detailed questions, however, I'm concerned by the statement "....who has just joined me here in Scotland, on a tourist visa.".
Visitor visas allow only a limited range of activities, which doesn't include job seeking. I believe work visas need to be applied for from outside the UK.
If Surringer Singh is possible it may be different. But others with more knowledge may have more input.
Thank you for your response. I was working remotely from Greece, which is indeed also the country of my EU nationality and also yes, my partner was with me there and they are a Greek national as well.
In order to utilise the Surinder Singh route, you would have been required to be in an EU country of which you are not a citizen and exercising treaty rights in the EU country (of which you are not a citizen) as a British citizen, ie paying tax and having all the relevant residence etc required.englishgreek wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:22 pmThank you for your response. I was working remotely from Greece, which is indeed also the country of my EU nationality and also yes, my partner was with me there and they are a Greek national as well.
That's really useful to know, thank you!kamoe wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:20 pmJust being in a relationship isn't enough. The relationship needs to be akin to marriage. What that means isn't always clear cut, but grosso modo,englishgreek wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:56 am4. Since we are not married or in a civil partnership, but have been in a relationship for 2+ years, what kind of proof of this relationship would suffice?
you need to prove that you have already been operating as a married couple for at least two years. This usually means 2 years of cohabitation AND joint financial commitments, like a joint bank account that pays rent and bills, a mortgage, or the joint responsibility of raising children.
Of course, each application is different; but the above should give you an idea of the nature of the relationship that is expected.
Thank you. But given that I was in Greece and I am a UK citizen, am I not in this way exercising treaty rights in that EU country? I am asking because I do know cases of friends/acquaintances that have done that exact same thing (that is, dual UK/Greek nationals who have spent time in Greece with non EEA partners, then used SS to apply for residence for their non EEA partners). I had always assumed that as dual nationals we are first and foremost the citizens of the country that we are dealing with - that is, the British state sees us as British and the Greek as Greek - hence why it is not possible for the second country of a dual national to ask for them to be extradited if in legal trouble, for example. What are your thoughts?CR001 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:24 pmIn order to utilise the Surinder Singh route, you would have been required to be in an EU country of which you are not a citizen and exercising treaty rights in the EU country (of which you are not a citizen) as a British citizen, ie paying tax and having all the relevant residence etc required.
I think the only route available to you is the more costly Spouse visa route.
No. If you were British and not dual British and Greek, then yes, that could be the case, but you are also Greek. You cannot exercise treaty rights in your own country.englishgreek wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:06 pmBut given that I was in Greece and I am a UK citizen, am I not in this way exercising treaty rights in that EU country?
This only works if they exercised treaty rights in Greece as UK nationals before becoming Greek citizens. This would not work if they were already Greek when they came to Greece to exercise treaty rights. Again, if you are Greek and go to Greece for work (or if you are French and go to France for work, or Italian and in Italy for work, etc.), then by definition you are NOT exercising treaty rights, since you are in your own country of nationality.I am asking because I do know cases of friends/acquaintances that have done that exact same thing (that is, dual UK/Greek nationals who have spent time in Greece with non EEA partners, then used SS to apply for residence for their non EEA partners).
Well, precisely. In Greece you are Greek, then you are in the country of your nationality and, for the third time, by definition that means you are NOT exercising treaty rights in Greece.I had always assumed that as dual nationals we are first and foremost the citizens of the country that we are dealing with - that is, the British state sees us as British and the Greek as Greek - hence why it is not possible for the second country of a dual national to ask for them to be extradited if in legal trouble, for example. What are your thoughts?
Maybe ask them further details of exactly what they did. Did they use Surinder Singh to apply for residence in Greece, or in the UK? (The Surinder Singh route is open in any EU state). Maybe they might not have used Surinder Singh but the Lounes rote of the EU Settlement Scheme. Which, might or might not apply to you.englishgreek wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:06 pmI do know cases of friends/acquaintances that have done that exact same thing (that is, dual UK/Greek nationals who have spent time in Greece with non EEA partners, then used SS to apply for residence for their non EEA partners).
That's really useful to know. I'll do exactly that - ask them.kamoe wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:46 pmMaybe ask them further details of exactly what they did. Did they use Surinder Singh to apply for residence in Greece, or in the UK? (The Surinder Singh route is open in any EU state). Maybe they might not have used Surinder Singh but the Lounes rote of the EU Settlement Scheme. Which, might or might not apply to you.
When did you first come to the UK?
All the way back in 2001.
When did you naturalise as British?
2011.
When did you move back to Greece?
I've been back and forth between Greece and the UK for the past three years, since early 2019.
When did you start your relationship with your partner?
Around that time, early-mid 2019.
Is this relationship of a durable nature, as described by 2 years of cohabitation AND joint financial commitments?
Yes indeed
and last but not least,
What is your reason for applying in 2022, and not by the deadline on 2021?
Being stuck in Greece due to Covid restrictions together with the fact that I had work commitments in the country (and assumed that I must be back in the UK to apply).
Thank you for all this info kamoe, and everyone else on this thread. This is fantastically informative for me - I am grateful. A few questions that now spring up:kamoe wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:52 amSmall correction for the above: In the event you can prove that your relationship was indeed durable as early as 31st December 2020, your partner could apply for Pre-settled status directly, no need for a Family Permit, and she could do so while on a visitor visa (I think this is the only exception of routes allowing applications while on visit visas).
BUT (and there are big buts):
1. As I said above, you have two big obstacles to jump, which are not trivial (relationship eligible by 31/12/2020 and justifiable reason of late application).
2. Some EUSS applications, specially non-straightforward ones, are taking several months. The most unlucky people have been wanting for more than a year.
If time is an issue, it is wise to seriously consider the partner visa for family members of British nationals, outside of the EU Settlement Scheme.
All I can say is that this mirrors the old unmarried partner route that existed before Brexit, and I can only guess the same type of evidence is needed: Rule of thumb was to supply 6 separate pieces of correspondence addressed to the both of you and to the same address, from three different sources. These should cover evenly the 2-year period you are trying to prove (in your case it needs to cover from the moment you started living together up until now, because you need to prove the relationship still exists). Best thing to send are always official documents, e.g. council tax bill, utility bills, and joint bank statements; all of these addressed to the both of you (with both of your names as occupiers of the household, or account holders). If you can provide that (or the Greek equivalent), then you have most of the work done.englishgreek wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:22 am1. What counts toward proving the relationship is not trivial? We have a joint account in Greece and rent payment has been going out of this for the duration of our relationship. I can also get a letter from our landlord confirming we are the two joint tenants in the house. Would this be enough, according to people's experience? What else could I submit as such evidence?
I know covid-related reasons are usually accepted, but I do not have first-hand experience on how accommodating they are. Best policy is to always explain your reasons truthfully.2. Again in your experience, would Brexit plus work in Greece contracted by the UK seem like a legible excuse for a late application? Here I am planning on submitting a letter from my line manager confirming this was the case. Would this suffice? What kind of other evidence can I submit? and
Nothing. The application has no effect on any current visa. She simply needs to respect the terms of her current visa obviously, but this does not get cancelled just because she applied, no.3. What happens to my partner (a) while she waits for the outcome of the application
Nothing, but... although her visa won't get cancelled just because she applies for another type of leave and got rejected, any future visitor visa might be difficult (and some here say impossible) to get, since a failed immigration application proves her intention is not to visit, but to stay for the long run.and (b) if her application for pre-settled status is rejected?
Yes, that is possible. If the Home Office rejects her application they would be pretty much sending you the message to apply for the family member of British national route, so that would be a completely normal course of action.Would it not be possible for her to apply for pre-settled status and, if rejected, for us to try the partner visa for family members of British nationals?
Not for her chances of partner visa, but for visit visas as explained above.Or could a failed pre-settled status application be detrimental to her chances for the partner visa as well?
There is also any healthcare bills to think about. She night want to look at how long her Greek EHIC will cover her for and what costs Greece will cover under their EHIC. Especailly if she does not leave the UK when her visitor visa date expires.englishgreek wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:56 amHi all good people of the board,
Here is our situation, in brief: I am a dual (EEA/UK) national having lived in the UK in excess of twenty years. I am on what is considered a good and settled salary that is in excess of what I see is required to sponsor my partner, who has just joined me here in Scotland, on a tourist visa. S
Now, regarding your questions:For applications decided from 6 October 2021, the requirement not to be in the UK as a visitor was removed from Appendix EU (by virtue of the changes made in Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules: HC 617). This means that applicants are no longer required not to be in the UK as a visitor to qualify for leave under Appendix EU as a joining family member of a relevant sponsor.
She can exit the country anytime she wants, that is not the issue.englishgreek wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:25 pm1. Can my partner exit the country now and apply for the six-month EU family permit? Presumably this needs similar evidence to that of an established relationship (joint mortgage, bank account, utility bills etc).
Maybe this post can give you an idea? (It's not a timeline thread with inputs from many people, just the experience of one person, though. Therefore, it might or might not be indicative of average waiting times.)How long on average does this take to issue?
What do you mean here? I do not know what three months you are referring to, nothing I am aware of. There is no restriction, anyone can apply straight away.2. If she were to apply for the family permit now from outside the country (#1) and wait for the three months required before applying for the EU settlement scheme
Whatever the answer to the above, it would be reasonable to expect that only the date of first application on a two-part process (Family Permit, then Pre-Settled Status; or Pre-Settled Status, then Settled Status) is taken into account when pondering if it's a late application, because obviously you cannot do the second application without the first one. You are overthinking.could it be that this is then used against her in that she will have applied for the EU settlement scheme even later than the original deadline? We are confident we have good enough reason to be applying for the scheme now, in August 2022, but not too sure these reasons will be as valid in November. Or is waiting for the family permit a reason in itself?
I don't think you understand. She has to apply via the Lounes route in any case.3. Alternatively, can she exit the country now and apply for the EU settlement scheme (via the Lourdes route)?
Actually, I have seen the argument of the lack of Family Permit or residence card used against people who were previously resident in the UK, not people who have never lived in the UK who just arrived and are in the UK on a visitor visa. Otherwise the section I quoted at the beginning of this post makes no sense.we understand this could mean her being out of the country for months, but presumably this also means the lack of a family permit cannot be brought up as a reason to reject the application (even if this is in itself an invalid reason).
A family member of a relevant EEA citizen can also apply where they are the family member of a dual British and EEA citizen who exercised free movement rights in the UK prior to the acquisition of British citizenship and who retained their EEA nationality of origin after acquiring British citizenship. This reflects the CJEU judgment in Lounes.
Just so it's clear: It's important to use the right terms.englishgreek wrote: ↑Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:09 pm
We have now made the decision to apply for a spouse visa going via the Lounes route.
You don't need to apply. In fact, you can't, as you are already a UK citizen. UK citizens cannot apply for any UK immigration category, and that includes the EU Settlement Scheme.Question is, if we are going via the Lounes route, do I also need to apply for settled status before my partner can apply to join me here as the partner of an EEA national?
There is no English language requirement for the EU Settlement Scheme.- In terms of English language eligibility, my partner holds the Michigan ECCE (Examination for the Certificate of Competency in English), which is B2 apparently. Would this suffice or does she have to take another test?
Do you think that is indeed the case?Although the Lounes case makes it possible for dual UK/EEA nationals, to sponsor family members under the EU settlement scheme as above, applications for family members of EEA nationals who are also UK nationals ("Lounes" applications) are considerably more complex than regular applications where the EEA national is not a UK national.
Applications have to be made using a paper form which is only available on request, after answering a number of questions, and it's over 40 pages.
That is indeed the case. I've said it myself.englishgreek wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:58 amA final question: the people over at this forum seem to think I would need to apply using a paper form:
https://www.forum.ukcen.com/resources/s ... als-lounes
Do you think that is indeed the case?Although the Lounes case makes it possible for dual UK/EEA nationals, to sponsor family members under the EU settlement scheme as above, applications for family members of EEA nationals who are also UK nationals ("Lounes" applications) are considerably more complex than regular applications where the EEA national is not a UK national.
Applications have to be made using a paper form which is only available on request, after answering a number of questions, and it's over 40 pages.