Dependant Relative wishing to remain in the UK.

[Bakuli]

Hi ,

I am posting this question on behalf of a friend, who is a British Citizen.
His elderly mother, a Canadian citizen, who is in her eighties is here on holiday in the UK but wishes to remain here permanently as her only relatives are her 3 sons who are all British Citizens.
The question is , " Does she need to apply for permission to remain indefinitely or can she already do so as a commonwealth citizen?".

Any help is very much appreciated. Many thanks

[Wanderer]

Hi ,

I am posting this question on behalf of a friend, who is a British Citizen.
His elderly mother, a Canadian citizen, who is in her eighties is here on holiday in the UK but wishes to remain here permanently as her only relatives are her 3 sons who are all British Citizens.
The question is , " Does she need to apply for permission to remain indefinitely or can she already do so as a commonwealth citizen?".

Any help is very much appreciated. Many thanks

She'll most certainly need to switch visas, most likely out of UK...

Is she wholly dependant on your friend, and no other siblings back home who help?

Whatever it will cost visa-wise, commonwealth means in the name of god all these days....

[Frontier Mole]

This is a common stunt played by many an aged wrinkly. She will get a refusal when she applies.
Firstly on the fact that you can not change from a visitors visa / non visa national waiver to any other form of entry.
Secondly - The rules are very strict on dependents and she has virtually has to be destitute and out on the street in their home country. Also no immediate relatives in home of any kind.
One other rule is that she would have to prove she was wholly or mainly reliant on funding from whoever she is to settle with in the UK while in Canada.
As you can gather it is not an easy route.
It is almost better to go the opposite way and get her to become self sufficient so she can prove she can come to the UK and be self reliant.

[Bakuli]

This is a common stunt played by many an aged wrinkly. She will get a refusal when she applies.
Firstly on the fact that you can not change from a visitors visa / non visa national waiver to any other form of entry.
Secondly - The rules are very strict on dependents and she has virtually has to be destitute and out on the street in their home country. Also no immediate relatives in home of any kind.
One other rule is that she would have to prove she was wholly or mainly reliant on funding from whoever she is to settle with in the UK while in Canada.
As you can gather it is not an easy route.
It is almost better to go the opposite way and get her to become self sufficient so she can prove she can come to the UK and be self reliant.

Hi Frontier Mole,

Thanks for the response.

I am sorry I didn't explain the situation better. My friend's mum is self sufficient financially and had never been dependent on her sons in that respect. She has no relatives in Canada as originally she came from Singapore which she is no longer a citizen of, after taking up Canadian citizenship back in the 60's. She has three sons, all of whom have been in the UK since the 60's and are British citizens. Her sons are all financially independent. She is in receipt of a pension so I would think she will not be dependent on the state (UK) if allowed to remain. Also she is a property owner in Canada and would sell the property to buy one in the UK if permitted to stay (the plan is for one of her sons, who is currently going through a divorce, to live with her as she does need somebody with her to keep "an eye" ).
So would it be possible for her to apply for permanent residency without having to return back to Canada? In fact one of her sons had to go over to Canada last month to bring her over to the UK as she would have had great difficulties travelling on her own. It would be extremely difficult if she has to go back to Canada to apply to come over to the UK as a dependent relative.
Many thanks for any input.

Bakuli

[Bakuli]

Hi ,

I am posting this question on behalf of a friend, who is a British Citizen.
His elderly mother, a Canadian citizen, who is in her eighties is here on holiday in the UK but wishes to remain here permanently as her only relatives are her 3 sons who are all British Citizens.
The question is , " Does she need to apply for permission to remain indefinitely or can she already do so as a commonwealth citizen?".

Any help is very much appreciated. Many thanks

She'll most certainly need to switch visas, most likely out of UK...

Is she wholly dependant on your friend, and no other siblings back home who help?

Whatever it will cost visa-wise, commonwealth means in the name of god all these days....

Hi Wanderer,

I have further explained the situation in the above post. Thanks for replying to my query.

Bakuli

[Wanderer]

Read what Frontier Mole said, it's just not gonna happen.

[Frontier Mole]

Old and frail as she maybe it is still expected that she should return to Canada to apply. She can apply in the UK but expect a refusal as I said before.
By the looks of things she has a good chance of getting the retired and self sufficent route to entry. The question comes down to does she want to fight an appeal through the court when she gets refused or take the easier path and return home. I think this is a personal choice but the quickest and easiest route is to return to Canada and sort it out from there.

[vinny]

By the looks of things she has a good chance of getting the retired and self sufficent route to entry.

Closure of the retired persons of independent means route of entry.

[Frontier Mole]

Vinny

Thanks for the update.

Opps!

Sorry about that! Did not realise that was another 27th November change - and I should really know!!

Ah well that changes things for the worse, seems unlikely that under the current position there is any real hope of achieving legal stay or subsequent entry.......

[Bakuli]

Vinny

Thanks for the update.

Opps!

Sorry about that! Did not realise that was another 27th November change - and I should really know!!

Ah well that changes things for the worse, seems unlikely that under the current position there is any real hope of achieving legal stay or subsequent entry.......

Thanks everybody for the information. I will inform my friend of the bad news. It's such a shame that my friend or her other 2 sons can't look after their aged mother and that she would more than likely end up in an old folks home somewhere in Canada. Such a pity for some one so old to spend the end of her days.

Anyway, thanks again. This is a great forum.

Regards,
bakuli

[Frontier Mole]

Had a root around the rumour mill at work - it is likely that there will be a concession allowing self sufficient retired (over 65) people with links to the UK to come to the UK a sort of retirement residency. Apparently the new rules were not specifically designed to close this route but there was an oversight!
Look out for the discussion in Parliament when the new rules get knocked about, it is a good bet an amendment allowing the route to be opened is on the cards.
A couple of points though, if it happens there is the suggestion there will be a few new barriers put in place that were not in the old scheme. Private health insurance, no right to citizenship and something along the lines of a guaranteed state or private pension or private income of not less than £X per week. Guessing at minimum DWP funding value.

Let's see if I get to wear the "told you so" t-shirt.

[Bakuli]

Had a root around the rumour mill at work - it is likely that there will be a concession allowing self sufficient retired (over 65) people with links to the UK to come to the UK a sort of retirement residency. Apparently the new rules were not specifically designed to close this route but there was an oversight!
Look out for the discussion in Parliament when the new rules get knocked about, it is a good bet an amendment allowing the route to be opened is on the cards.
A couple of points though, if it happens there is the suggestion there will be a few new barriers put in place that were not in the old scheme. Private health insurance, no right to citizenship and something along the lines of a guaranteed state or private pension or private income of not less than £X per week. Guessing at minimum DWP funding value.

Let's see if I get to wear the "told you so" t-shirt.

Thanks Frontier Mole. Hope you get that T-shirt!

[vinny]

Look out for the discussion in Parliament when the new rules get knocked about,

There are other concerns about these rules. The refusal of marriage visas to those aged 18 to 21 is portrayed as an attempt to prevent people being bullied into marriage. That I applaud—but this blunt instrument will also catch many genuine personal relationships. There is already legislation to prevent forced marriage. I do not believe that the refusal of visas will help anyone, and it will damage couples seeking to settle here in new, perfectly legal circumstances. Similarly, closing the way of entering for retired persons of independent means, means that elderly dependent relatives of people here may be allowed to come on compassionate grounds, while independent relatives will not be able to come. The provisions in both those examples give minimal benefit to anyone while damaging what is, admittedly, comparatively few people, but people who will suffer substantially. It must be no part of our rules to cause hardship and trauma to people, however few, without good reason.

However, much less welcome are the changes, mentioned by the right reverend Prelate, which will stop retired persons of independent means who have close connections with this country—that is, family and friends—being able to apply to retire and spend the rest of their lives here, while elderly dependent relatives will still be able to come here if they live alone abroad and are in what are described as compelling compassionate circumstances.


25 Nov 2008 : Column 1429

By what logic has it been decided that there should be a difference between those who, late in life, can support themselves financially and wish to come to live close to their relatives but will not be allowed to do so, and those who cannot support themselves and will be dependent on family when they get here but will be allowed to come? The Minister will know that, in response to a question about this matter posed in the consultation carried out by the UK Border Agency—I repeat, the UK Border Agency and not the Government—nearly 60 per cent of the respondents were against this change. Can the Minister tell us what weight was given by the Home Office and the Government to these views before the policy, which now appears in these changes, was adopted?

There are a great many unanswered questions about this wholly unsatisfactory process. We believe that a socially responsible immigration policy needs proper controls to build public confidence in the system, but the flaws in what is happening under the current changes are becoming more and more evident.

I know that abolishing the retired persons route is a difficult and thorny issue. We consider that the retired persons route, if retained, would allow migrants to enter the UK and remain here without necessarily having earned that right. That would give them a distinct advantage over other migrants. We will, however, continue to allow a parent or grandparent aged 65 or over to come to the UK if they are financially dependent on the relative who is present and settled in the UK and have no close relatives in their country. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord on ICTs.

[Frontier Mole]

Vinny,
Has the debate been heard in the lower house yet?

[vinny]

I haven't seen reports of recent debates on the subject since the statement on 04 November 2009.