Nationality or statelessness

[visitor4now]

Yes I can read Portuguese. The articles of the Brazilian Constitution you mentioned have a terrible wording, but they mean roughly what I had told you before:

"The Brazilian citizen who voluntarily acquires another citizenship will lose his Brazilian citizenship, EXCEPT in case the foreign law recognizes the original Brazilian citizenship".

Which means, your child will be able to naturalize as a British citizen, as British law recognizes dual citizenship, but won't be able to naturalize as a German citizen, for example, as German law won't accept dual citizenship.

Basically, the articles says that Brazilian law only recognizes dual citizenship in case the law of the country one is being naturalized into also recognizes it. Complicated and not very well written in the Constitution, but making it legal for Brazilian people to acquire British citizenship.

I agree that the child won't have Brazilian nationality automatically, making him/her effectively stateless at birth (if in Italy), as he/she won't have British or Russian nationality either. Italian is the only way to go!

[Richard66]

Visitor, I have checked here:

http://jus2.uol.com.br/doutrina/texto.asp?id=11074

And this is what a jurist says:

Em regra, a aquisição voluntária de outra nacionalidade ocasiona a perda da nacionalidade brasileira. A primeira exceção diz respeito a reconhecimento de nacionalidade estrangeira, não havendo, nesse caso, aquisição voluntária de nacionalidade que justificasse a sanção política mencionada.

This says a Brazilian will only not lose his nationality if he has a claim to a second nationality by birth and not though naturalisation. This was written in the constitution to allow descendants of Italians to claim Italian citizenship without needing to renounce Brazilian citizenship. In this case, descendants of Italians are Italians in virtue of birth: they do not need to register to claim: they only need to prove their family ties. I did this for my American citizenship: I merely claimed it before reaching the age of 17.

I have also found this:

http://www.brazilsf.org/port/7.5.htm

Segundo o Despacho número 172 do Ministério da Justiça, de 4 de agosto de 1995, a interpretação a ser dada a essa norma constitucional é a de que:

a) no caso da alínea (a) transcrita acima - reconhecimento de nacionalidade originária -, "não perde a nacionalidade o brasileiro que teve reconhecida outra nacionalidade por Estado estrangeiro, quando a mesma decorre do direito de sangue (jus sanguinis), sendo originariamente adquirida. Aqui o simples vínculo sanguíneo é que faz surgir a nacionalidade, independente do local de nascimento. É, v.g., o caso da Itália que reconhece aos descendentes de seus nacionais a cidadania italiana. Muitos brasileiros descendentes de italianos vêm obtendo aquela nacionalidade, através do simples processo administrativo. Nesta hipótese, não há aquisição derivada de nacionalidade estrangeira, mas reconhecimento de nacionalidade originária, independente de renúncia ou opção pela nacionalidade anterior. Neste caso, não perderão a nacionalidade brasileira os que se utilizarem de tal benefício";

This says the very same thing.

[Richard66]

Can you get something in writing from a Russian lawyer confirming the application of this?

Because if you don't, the Home Office could easily conclude that your child, born with one Russian parent and no other nationality, is automatically a Russian citizen at birth and hence ineligible for registration as a British citizen under section 3(2) of the Act?

Will a translation of the Russian law do? It is clewarly written there that both parents must be Russia, the other parent must be unknown, or, if only one parent is Russian, the birth occurs in Russia. It also applies if the the child will become stateless, but here again this statelessness would need to be demonstrated.

Remember what someone said about Russian laws: "The severity of the Russian law is balanced by the fact one does not need to obey it."

Such is the Russian consulate!

[JAJ]

Will a translation of the Russian law do? It is clewarly written there that both parents must be Russia, the other parent must be unknown, or, if only one parent is Russian, the birth occurs in Russia. It also applies if the the child will become stateless, but here again this statelessness would need to be demonstrated.

You've given a translation of the law above and the problem is that on one interpretation, Russian citizenship for an otherwise stateless child is automatic.

[visitor4now]

You are right a about the naturalization issue, Richard. My interpretation of the law was wrong. But still, seems to me that the official position of the Brazilian government is that as long as you don't expressly renounce your Brazilian citizenship, you're not really going to lose it.

Check this:

http://www.brazilianembassy.nl/cons_209.htm

And also:

Portaria no. 172 do Ministro da Justiça, de 4 de agosto de 1995: "é preservada a nacionalidade brasileira daquele que, por motivos de trabalho, acesso aos serviços públicos, fixação de residência, etc., praticamente se vê obrigado a adquirir a nacionalidade estrangeira, mas que, na realidade, jamais teve a intenção ou vontade de abdicar da cidadania originária. Assim, embora já tenham adquirido outra nacionalidade, os brasileiros poderão manter a nacionalidade brasileira. "

I found the above here:

http://www.consbraslondres.com/index.ph ... ico&id=109

[Richard66]

You've given a translation of the law above and the problem is that on one interpretation, Russian citizenship for an otherwise stateless child is automatic.

It cannot be automatic, because statelessness needs to be demonstrated and these claims need to be verified before any statelessness is declared.

Or does thus Russian legislator simple believe the first caller who says, hey! this child is steteless! Be so kind as to write me a birth certificate at once!"

Bear in mind the save provviso applies in Italy, that is, a satateless child becomes Italian.

As they say here, it's a dog that bites its tail.

I remember reading some time ago that friend Putin said that it was interesting for Russian citizens to obtain a second nationality, especially a European or American one, because they would enjoy the best of two worlds and create a class of highly employable Russian citizens, which might in part explain why they are so free with their passports — to people who already have one. If this be true, it follows that it will not be in their best interests to have the child Russian only, but it would be a great advantage if it were to become Russian at a later date — after becoming a British or Italian citizen.

What you say, Visitor, is true, but here we have it: under what compultion does a Brazilian citizen living in Italy lie that he need apply for Russian citizenship (or British, for that)? Apparently in the near future Brazilians will not even need visas to go to Russia...

The Consulate in Rotterdam seems to be giving incorrect information, if the link you sent me is to be believed.

[Richard66]

I would like to write to the British Embassy in Rome about this, but I really do not know what to write and what not to mention. Is there anyone else out there that has to juggle with the citizenship laws of 5 countries?

[JAJ]

I would like to write to the British Embassy in Rome about this, but I really do not know what to write and what not to mention. Is there anyone else out there that has to juggle with the citizenship laws of 5 countries?

Almost no chance of anyone else having a case as complex as yours. I really doubt they will be able to help.

In the circumstances, and it may not be what you want to hear, you may just have to bite the bullet and do what is necessary to have your wife give birth in the U.K.

Then at least the child will have one citizenship and you can work on the others.

Otherwise I fear you may be in for a long battle with authorities in various places, and a stateless child caught in the middle. I say "may be" rather than "will be" but unless you can find someone with identical circumstances to yours, you are going to be in the realms of guesswork.

I think the forum has given you as much reference to British law and policy as you'll get anywhere. As for Italian, Brazilian and Russian law, I don't think anyone here has a lot of understanding of all three.

[Richard66]

I think you are right, JAJ, you people have done what you could to help and I thank you for it.

It seems then the route is to go to the UK, but unless I am prepared to pay through my nose, I shall need to be returning to work, or at least to look for work, is that it? I do not find it morally very honest, however, and unfair with the taxpayer's money. What would I need? I have a NI number, so I think here we are covered.

Will not the fact that I am not (legally) employed make a difference when applying for the EEA FP. After all, the Embassy in Rome will want to see evidence of my exercising treaty rights... I do have my old work contract and a declaration that I am enrolled as unemployed. I am, however, with others, starting a school in spring next year. Or maybe I could be sent on a mission to the UK for the school I currently (not legally) work for. Do you think this would work?

If we were to go there just for the birth, do you have any ideas of the cost of a delivery?

[Richard66]

What worries me is: and if they refuse to issue my wife with an EEA FP? I know they cannot in theory and I could appeal, but, by the time all is settled they baby have been born (the presumed date is in late March).

Were I to have already a job when I arrive, would this entitle my wife to delivery through the NHS? I believe so, but am I right?

[Richard66]

My wife and I do have Italian health insurance and we both have a European Health Insurance Card. Will this help?

I am very much afraid the EEA FP may be refused as our sole reason to go to the UK is for her to give birth and we certainly cannot cover the costs and, from what I have read, the Italian state will not foot the bill using form E112.

I have been speaking to the person for whom I work (a language school), asking if I cannot be given (a real) commission to go to the UK to visit language schools to establish contacts. This might be a solution, as it will enable me to have a solid reason to go as well as allowing me to continue earning a salary.

[Richard66]

Wanderer, if your wife is willing to read this to you, try here:

http://www.italia-ru.it/forum/2008/11/0 ... ogo-italii

It is a forum for Russians in Italy.

This is my wife who asked that one. Just see what they understood!!!!!

That we are not married
That I am a big big b. that will not admit my errors and recognise my child
That she is an illegal immigrant trying to find a way to stay in Italy.



She has never felt so insulted in her life.

[daria]

Hello Richard66,

I read the thread you've given in Russians in Italy site.
Please pass my sympathy to your wife! Russian ladies in Italy cannot read , because your wife clearly explained the matter in her first post.
If they have bothered to read it properly,there would not be so much bitching around!
Hope you find the expert who can help you!

[Richard66]

Thank you, Daria! I shall!

[Richard66]

We seem to be moving a bit closer...

The Italians will not pay for birth in the UK and neither will the NHS pay for it (I do not even intend to ask them!). One solution is to find a job in the UK for the duration, but I really do not like the idea. It is not morally acceptable.

But speaking at the local town hall they told me that I, for them, am a British citizen and only, so, if I were to produce a an American or a brazilian child chaos would ensue. This reduces the question to the UK, Russia and Italy.

The Italians will work like this: They presume the child will follow my citizenship, my citizenship as declared to the Italian authorities. If I present documentary evidence that the child will not become Italian, they will presume it to be Russian. If then we produce evidence it will not become Russian either then and only then will they grant Italian citizenship. Because of the trouble it would cause, as it would mean using two citizenships with my relations with the Italian state, they will not even consider either the American or the Brazilian road.

I sent an e-mail and a fax to the British Embassy in Rome, which they kindly ignored.

The Russians, if they follow their own laws, will only give citizenship to the child if it is born stateless, this is, we would need a declaration from the British authorities saying it will not become British and from the Italian authorities saying it will not become Italian. Logically this means that acquisition of Russian nationality is not automatic, ergo, that the child will be born stateless. In this case it might be registered as a British citizen.

Considering the above, as told at the town hall, the British should not be say I can claim American or Brazilian citizenship as this will mean the child will not be issued with residence documents in Italy. As we all would end up with different nationalities we would not be able either to remain in Italy or even to be reomved, as no one country will accept all three of us unconditionally.

At the town hall they do not recommend us to give one one citizenship to the child (say Russian) as it could happen that the child and I might need to leave Italy (for a family visit, for example) and be stopped at the border as a child trafficker. Having a third citizenship will make this even more probable even if all of us travel together.

It seems therefore that the best is to get a declaration from the Russian consulate that the child will not become Russian (which they will probably not give) and apply for registration as a British citizen.

[Richard66]

I found this on http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... documents/

NB: If your parents hold different non-British citizenships or nationalities, or either of them holds more than one citizenship or nationality, you will need to get letters from all of the countries concerned [stating statelessness]. Similarly, if you have resided for 5 years or more in more than one country, you will need to get letters of confirmation from all of the countries concerned.

The Italians will not accept our child's having a different citizenship from the parents and the British will not give him citizenship unless we prove he is stateless in 4 other countries.

What a mess!