Adoption/FBR/RICA - confusion

[mattydc]

Good evening all!

Apologies for making a new long thread for this headache but through all the reading I have done and found a closed thread which was somewhat helpful however I thought it might be good to have own for anyone else in this situation in future to hopefully find, be guided and not get so stressed.

Situation - I was adopted by a UK born and resident but Irish citizen father in 1983/84. My grandmother was born on the island so going by everything I've read s.6(2) INCA "Every person is an Irish citizen if his father or mother was an Irish citizen at the time of that person's birth or becomes an Irish citizen under subsection (1) or would be an Irish citizen under that subsection if alive at the passing of this Act.". No problem he gained his Irish passport easily enough with a couple of certificates while DFE have then outright told me he wasn't a Irish citizen until he did this step which seems wrong - he was a citizen just without a passport surely?

With this in mind I did the research and filled out FBR form based on grounds of having Irish born grandparent and accepted this would be the end of the road for our heritage as I already have 2 children with no plans for more and by not being on FBR before they lost their entitlement to carry it on. However, 9 months on FBR have now contacted me saying they note I am adopted and have provided details of my adoptive Irish citizen parent so am I applying on the grounds of adoptive Irish citizen parent and not via biological link...

Of course I found this quite strange as via adoption there would be no biological link, but legally grandmother is my grandmother still and I have no entitlement to claim through my UK born father, right? Wrong? According to s.11(1) "Upon an adoption order being made, under the Adoption Act, 1952 (No. 25 of 1952), in a case in which the adopter or, where the adoption is by a married couple, either spouse is an Irish citizen, the adopted child, if not already an Irish citizen, shall be an Irish citizen."

Now this was a UK adoption, but surely is a legal and valid adoption under Irish law - Yes if you go to adoption agency of Ireland and get a RICA certificate to have it recognised under Irish law. And now the confusion starts. Passport site now says: If you were born abroad and adopted under Irish Law, we need your original documents but we will return these to you. Please submit:

The adoption certificate by the adoption authority where adoption was effected, if adopted before 1 November 2010, or the Intercountry Adoption certificate issued by Adoption Authority of Ireland if adopted on or after 1 November 2010.

So, I was adopted before 1/11/2010 and they already have my adoption certificate from the GRO - note it does not say need RICA certificate from Ireland. So what is going on here?

Reading it my way, it appears somehow adopted children are treated more favourably than birth children as as my father was a Irish citizen who adopted, I then became a Irish citizen the day he adopted me and such my biological children would then be entitled to claim under "Minor applicant whose parent is an Irish citizen on the basis of being born abroad and adopted under Irish law by an Irish citizen" even though I'm not on the FBR.

I see many options here, 1 carry on with my FBR claim from grandmother. Unsure at this point whether they will reject it or not at FBR. Either way it looks like I can now claim a passport direct through my father. But then, if I register the adoption under Irish law with the RICA surely I was a Irish citizen via adoption and this then allows my kids to claim and carry on the heritage?

Has anyone had any success or failure stories with anything like this or any input? AAI told me they issue certificates way faster than FBR and they deem the date of adoption as the date of adoption rather than the date you apply to have it registered under Irish law. But it's then still under the DFE as to what they deem to be the date you became a 'citizen'.

Regards,

Matt

[corky100]

OK, you're getting put through the tumble dryer like I was.

I assume your adoptive Grandfather was born on the Isle of Ireland, and his child adopted you?

If that is the case, then you are an Irish Citizen under Section 11 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act.

So the short version is, you apply directly for a passport. You are totally correct about the requirements stating a RICA certificate is not needed for a pre-2010 adoption. But this is where theory meets practice I'm afraid......

You *will*, regardless of date of adoption, need to get a RICA before DFA Passport will issue.

Read the fun I had here......

ireland/born-abroad-and-adopted-under-i ... 25364.html

Also, please come back to me. Something you mentioned is pertinent........

[mattydc]

Thanks for the reply, tumble dryer would be the nice way to put it, id describe it more like a furnace!

Was my adoptive grandmother (born on the island) in this case, but yes her son, my dad, adopted me in the UK after they/she had moved as as a family. (History unclear but she married a British Navy guy, had children (my uncles and dad)). All of my uncles were born in the 1950's period and she unfortunately died while they were all teenagers so the history died with her there. My uncles have some children of their own while my father was only able to adopt. We cannot nor do not care whether this was down to his choice of British partner or his inability to father.... It's not relevant.

The fact is whether the law now deems adopted people to be Irish citizens via adoption differently versus natural births. We seem to skip a FBR step by being adopted IE s.11.

Kind regards,

Matt

[corky100]

Hi,

You are ineligble for FBR on the basis you're already a citizen, that's it. Drop the FBR application. But as it's a foreign adoption, it not so much that you skip a step, you go through a different route.

FBR for normally born people, RICA for adopted.

But.............Are you saying that you have an Irish birth parent / grandparent as well?

The AAI are very helpful. I had to sent in my GRO Adoption cert, parents marriage cert and, in my case, the **original** court order. They had lots of questions when I phoned, answering them helped.

Where it gets complicated - the law changes (as far as I understand) for pre 1991, post 91/pre 98 and post 2010 adoptions. It seems to very much matter when and where the adoption occured. A UK adoption is fine, but there's only 10 countries on the "allowed" list.

I'm assuming you were adopted pre-91, like me. Could you elaborate on what the AAI said in the last paragraph of your OP? DFE?

As far as I can see, pre-91, there was no definition of a 'foreign adoption' in Irish law, and no RICA or Foreign Adoption Register existed, to apply for. I could be wrong here.

[corky100]

I also find it curious that this has over 560 views already......

EDIT - Were you adoptive parents married???

[mattydc]

Hi corky,

Well yes I meant skip a step as in not wait 9 months for FBR. The mission now is getting them to read their emails to get it cancelled and all my certificates back. I don't have a birth grandparent from Ireland that I KNOW of but my birth mother does have a Gaelic surname so it is possible but that all I know about her. I obviously have the adoptive grandmother who I was originally claiming the FBR under. I've contacted courts and social services to see if I can get a copy of adoption order. Very relieved that I don't have to go for some counselling session that someone said they had heard people being forced to go to and answer questions to get adoption related paperwork! That seems to apply to pre-1975 adoptions and my dad has enough horror stories of stuff he had to go through with the social services to adopt in the first place!!

Yes it was pre-91 adoption and yes adoptive parents were married. I hear back then in was almost unheard of for unmarried couples to even be considered able to adopt and many difficult and intrusive questions were asked of them. AAI are very helpful I mean she explained that although the RICA certificate will have a date of production/entry on it, it is for legal purposes a birth certificate and she said their turnaround times can be a little as a couple of days. DFE-typo DFA!

[corky100]

Hi,

The pre-75 counselling stuff is for your records held by the council. The court order is totally sepearate i.e. Even if pre-75 you don't need it for that, it's a matter of public record.

Best place to start is the court, and if it no longer exists, other courts in the area or https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/inf ... f-deposit/ . It all changes depending on area so no catch-all guidance for that sorry.

I've heard of people not having to get the court order for the RICA issue, the adoption certificate from the GRO on its own sufficed. Best to ask the AAI on that one. I think it depends on, again, when you were adopted.

Good thing they were married, I can't see any reason why you're not eligible for a RICA.

Anyway, please stick around, when you hit 30 posts I can DM you

[mattydc]

So far so good email back today with what we knew. s25 adoption act I'm already a Irish citizen. They are posting me certs back and invite me to apply direct for passport once I receive them. Also when I receive it I'm to contact them again to have FBR cancelled and a refund issued! Wasn't expecting that. It's strange they haven't mentioned anything about getting a RICA - just apply under category of born abroad and adopted under Irish law - which is actually what passport application says for pre2010. I've asked the webchat and they confirmed so I asked whether I should send grandmothers Irish birth certificate to prove my dad was Irish from birth even though born in the UK and they said yes along with copy of his current passport. I will double check with AAI on Monday re RICA but probably get it anyway just to be safe.

The real interesting thing will be when I get my passport will my kids even be able to get on FBR. INCA s.7 Neither subsection (2) nor (4) of section 6 shall confer Irish citizenship on a person born outside Ireland if the father or mother through whom he derives citizenship was also born outside Ireland, unless—
(a) that person's birth is registered under section 27, or

So they apply for FBR.. But then FBR category Minor applicant whose parent is an Irish citizen on the basis of being born abroad and adopted under Irish law by an Irish citizen seems to require Documents relating to the grandparent born in Ireland.

So if I was on FBR before they were born they could have gone on the FBR, but as a Irish citizen by adoption before they were born I cannot register them on it nor go on FBR myself. How curious that adopted people not born on the island get automatic citizenship but then their children are prevented, whilst natural born children need apply for citizenship but can pass it down. Or should I ask them to enter me on FBR from grandmother anyway, then apply for kids under Minor applicant whose parent is an Irish citizen through entry on the Foreign Births Register - they will then throw it back saying wasn't on FBR before they were born and I can reply I was already a citizen before I was on the FBR.

[corky100]

I'm currently on hols with family and away from laptop. I have a response but too long to type on phone, will try this eve.

In the meantime could you elaborate on FBR response re s25 adoption act including year of act.

[mattydc]

No problem enjoy your holidays! Here's what they said and below what I said to prompt the reply.

In light of this information you have submitted, under the provisions of Section 25 of the Adoption Act 1952, you are already an Irish citizen. As a result, you are not required to apply through the Foreign Birth Register, and can, if you wish, now apply for an Irish passport when you receive your documents.

When you receive your Irish passport, you will then need to contact fbrprocessing@dfa.ie and request to have your FBR application cancelled and a refund issued.

The attached link will provide information on applying online for an Irish passport How to apply for a passport - Department of Foreign Affairs (dfa.ie)

The category of citizenship will be “Born Abroad and Adopted under Irish Law”.







I would really value a discussion with you regarding this. I have called the helpline and also spoke to AAI regarding adoptions.

As I see it, disregarding what webchat says (because my father was a Irish citizen the day he was born), because he was born to a mother who was born on the Island, s.6 INCA applies. Webchat they tell me he wasn't a citizen until he claimed his passport however I believe he was a Irish citizen at birth because his mother was born in Cork. He did not need to claim a passport to become a citizen, he was entitled to claim one and always was a Irish citizen whether he did so or not. I should still have the entitlement to claim via my Grandmother but the adoption may have complicated things.

s.11 complicated things further because it says any Irish citizen who then adopts a child "Upon an adoption order being made, under the Adoption Act, 1952 (No. 25 of 1952), in a case in which the adopter or, where the adoption is by a married couple, either spouse is an Irish citizen, the adopted child, if not already an Irish citizen, shall be an Irish citizen."

So that may then mean I was a Irish citizen already from the day I was adopted without knowing about it? But then that may mean my 2 children that I had before being entered onto the FBR are then allowed to be entered onto the FBR? These things make a lot of difference as it's important we get them right. Please would you contact me via phone.

[corky100]

I'm stuck with phone for internet. Hence reply limited.

Taking a step back. Your an Irish citizen under s.11 INCA. That's it. It makes no distinction between type of Irish citizen parent. You adoptive parent is an s.6 citizen so your S.11. end of.

My adoptive father was an Irish citizen by descent and I hold a an Irish passport under s.11 INCA.

I didn't believe it either at first. It came as news to me as well. Ironically the reason I never applied for FBR in 2010 was because I was adopted, and I just thought it was too big a spanner to throw.

I've mentioned what webchat said to me in the thread I linked, and what happened...............it might sound familiar

I'll elaborate further when I have a laptop not a phone in a bar. Your next step is to get an officially issued copy of court order, then RICA.

[mattydc]

Just to confirm corky i've done exactly as you said and hope you had a good holiday! While waiting for FBR to return certs i've found the court (it moved, twice, since 1984), been sent a A64 form to fill out. That's going off for the court order certified copy. The lady I spoke to on email seems to know her stuff she mentioned applying then getting directions from judge to release the information which is positive!

I get that back go for the RICA. Pay the 20E get my Irish 'birth' certificate and go for the passport! Let the fun begin when I try register my kids for FBR they gonna need a UK passport/driving licence to apply

[corky100]

Just to confirm corky i've done exactly as you said and hope you had a good holiday! While waiting for FBR to return certs i've found the court (it moved, twice, since 1984), been sent a A64 form to fill out. That's going off for the court order certified copy. The lady I spoke to on email seems to know her stuff she mentioned applying then getting directions from judge to release the information which is positive!

I get that back go for the RICA. Pay the 20E get my Irish 'birth' certificate and go for the passport! Let the fun begin when I try register my kids for FBR they gonna need a UK passport/driving licence to apply

Ah, so I know the name of the form to apply for now Have you got a GRO copy of your parents marriage cert?

[mattydc]

Yes I do corky, have them all grandparents marriage, parents marriage, grandmothers birth and death, fathers birth quite the collection! Court request sent off now so i'll update when I get that back and go for RICA so anyone reads this later has a idea of timescales.

[corky100]

Cool, in the RICA form there is a copy of the Statutory Declaration that you will need make infront of a solicitor, don't forget about that one. Make sure they stamp it.

[mrbojangles]

Hi Matty (and Corky),

I only just noticed this thread. Just wanted to add that Corky was endlessly helpful with me - I was in a similar position to both of you, and got an Irish passport by the route you're going down. I haven't read all the details of your situation, but Corky speaks true!

I was also baffled that adopted people are in a better situation than biologically born ones, I still don't really understand why, but I was grateful anyway.

[mattydc]

Hi guys, yes corky has been most helpful and I take his advice. It's much appreciated.

Done the stat dec already and RICA form. Just waiting for court 2 week backlog on sending copy orders. I also got a copy of it from social services by doing a SAR request but not risking sending that as they will no doubt say it's not original if I just print it out. So moving forward but bound by all the delays that go with procedure.

[corky100]

Ah cool - You instincts are right, they were very insistent that I send an original (i.e. officially issued) order. Definitely no photocopies. At the time I was really worried about loss, as it was the only copy I had, but it came back safely.

[mattydc]

Got the copy court order finally. It's the same as I would have printed from SAR request except I have the official stamp because it came from HMCS. Not stamped but I mean I have a cover letter that a judge authorised the disclosure (of my own records)

Off to AAI and wait some more

[corky100]

Mine was stamped all over the place, I'm not sure what the AAI will make of that, but, as that is what the court gave you, that's what you've got. Might be worth, at least asking, how to get it stamped just incase.

[mattydc]

Just a quick update. AAI very efficiently got my entry in RICA already and invited to apply for cert no hassle with the court order at all! So I'll whizz them 20E in the new year and then probably take this over to the passport application timescales thread for the remaining step.

Many thanks for all the advice and support received especially from Corky. Hope all had a good Xmas and have a great new year! A very pleasant end to the year for me for sure!

[mattydc]

Just a quick update. AAI very efficiently got my entry in RICA already and invited to apply for cert no hassle with the court order at all! So I'll whizz them 20E in the new year and then probably take this over to the passport application timescales thread for the remaining step.

Many thanks for all the advice and support received especially from Corky. Hope all had a good Xmas and have a great new year! A very pleasant end to the year for me for sure!

Edit anyone noticed the DFA seem to have done a total cleanup on their website? The information is way more linked up and they have opened a new telephone hub for such questions. Must be really new as Google hasn't picked up the new links yet. But they are also back to saying over 2 years for a FBR registration