Are dependent family members of irish citizen beneficiaries of Directive 2004/38/EC or not? Now confused

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Hello forum!

Through necessity, I became rather familiar with the EU law, specifically the Directive 2004/38/EC. I am now confused.

My mother is a dependent family member of an Irish citizen. She resides with us in Northern Ireland. Her dependency was established in an appeal against the refusal to issue an EU Settlement Scheme Family Permit, which she subsequently obtained and joined us. She now holds a pre-settled status in the UK.

We want to apply for an Irish visa for my mother so that she can travel with my family, including the Irish citizen, on holidays via Dublin airport or accompany us on occasional day trips to Ireland from Northern Ireland. Embassy insists that she needs to pay for visa and that she is not a beneficiary of Directive 2004/38/EC.

My understanding is that an Irish citizen, having been living and working in the UK whilst it was in the EU, and her dependent family members - are beneficaries of the Directive 2004/38/EC. Dependency is factual and it has been established in court. Therefore an Irish citizen is not solely Irish but an EU citizen for purposes of obtaining entry visas and residence permits for entry into Ireland. Would you kindly suggest if this is the casee
?

To make it clear, we are not looking to obtain a residence permit for my mother and we are not looking to move from NI to Ireland. Ours is a simply tourist visa application which in our view should be issued free of charge.

Thank you!

[Angel99]

Hi,

Since Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and no longer in EU, you can no longer bring your mother to Ireland via EU law. If UK was still part of EU then you could bring her to Ireland and use the EU citizen returning to original country after exercising freedom of movement.

It is possible to migrate with your mother to other EU countries via the EU law except Ireland.

The pre-settlement status is under UK national law.

Hope this helps.

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Hi,

Since Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and no longer in EU, you can no longer bring your mother to Ireland via EU law. If UK was still part of EU then you could bring her to Ireland and use the EU citizen returning to original country after exercising freedom of movement.

It is possible to migrate with your mother to other EU countries via the EU law except Ireland.

The pre-settlement status is under UK national law.

Hope this helps.

Hi, thank you for your response.

EU law states that dependent family members of EU citizens benefit from the EU law. We have an Irish citizen (Ireland is a part of EU and is therefore bound by EU law) and we have a dependent family member (whose dependence has been established and is ongoing). Whether we travel from the UK or Armenia, in terms of applying for Irish visa, is not a material factor in EU law.

We are not trying to move to Ireland and continue to reside in NI. We believe that a tourist visa should be free in this case becase the applicant is a beneficiary of EU law. This is the main issue here.

We could be wrong, however (there is always this possbility)

[shpirtshqipe]

Angel99 is right and the embassy is also correct in insisting on visa payment. The Directive makes provision only if the Non-EU Citizen has a settlement status in a EU Country. Unfortunately that is not the case with your mother whom holds a UK settlement status. Your Irish Citizenship does not give her the right of free passage to the UK.

[Angel99]

Hi,

Since Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and no longer in EU, you can no longer bring your mother to Ireland via EU law. If UK was still part of EU then you could bring her to Ireland and use the EU citizen returning to original country after exercising freedom of movement.

It is possible to migrate with your mother to other EU countries via the EU law except Ireland.

The pre-settlement status is under UK national law.

Hope this helps.

Hi, thank you for your response.

EU law states that dependent family members of EU citizens benefit from the EU law. We have an Irish citizen (Ireland is a part of EU and is therefore bound by EU law) and we have a dependent family member (whose dependence has been established and is ongoing). Whether we travel from the UK or Armenia, in terms of applying for Irish visa, is not a material factor in EU law.

We are not trying to move to Ireland and continue to reside in NI. We believe that a tourist visa should be free in this case becase the applicant is a beneficiary of EU law. This is the main issue here.

We could be wrong, however (there is always this possbility)

As shpirtshqipe has also clarified to you, and i will further advice you to read the EU Directive handbook properly.

An Irish citizen can not live in a non EU country and bring his *dependent family* to Ireland via EU law. There's exceptions for spouses and minor only thus if they have already had a residence card under EU law and in an non EU country later and want to live in the EU citizen sponsor's country. With this it can be argued the EU citizen is a returnee who has taken advantage of the freemovement. Unfortunately with your case your mother does not fall under this 2 groups.

You should note that except spouses and minor children, other relatives need to provide tangible reason to enjoy the EU law. Tourism will be the least acceptable reason.

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Hi Angel, I may have misconstrued the tone of your post but I have read the Directive, very, very carefully and numeorus times.

An Irish citizen can not live in a non EU country and bring his *dependent family* to Ireland via EU law. There's exceptions for spouses and minor only thus if they have already had a residence card under EU law and in an non EU country later and want to live in the EU citizen sponsor's country. With this it can be argued the EU citizen is a returnee who has taken advantage of the freemovement. Unfortunately with your case your mother does not fall under this 2 groups.

I believe my mother falls into that category as she was previously issued with Article 10 Residence Card, when UK was still a part of the UK, before her residence card was expired and exchnaged for a residence card issued under EU Settlement Scheme.

You should note that except spouses and minor children, other relatives need to provide tangible reason to enjoy the EU law. Tourism will be the least acceptable reason.

Tourism or residence purposes, a dependent family member, especially the one previosuly recognised to be a beneficiary of the Directive and issued with Article 10 residence card is clearly a beneficary of the EU law.

Dont you think that?

[Angel99]

Hi Angel, I may have misconstrued the tone of your post but I have read the Directive, very, very carefully and numeorus times.

An Irish citizen can not live in a non EU country and bring his *dependent family* to Ireland via EU law. There's exceptions for spouses and minor only thus if they have already had a residence card under EU law and in an non EU country later and want to live in the EU citizen sponsor's country. With this it can be argued the EU citizen is a returnee who has taken advantage of the freemovement. Unfortunately with your case your mother does not fall under this 2 groups.

I believe my mother falls into that category as she was previously issued with Article 10 Residence Card, when UK was still a part of the UK, before her residence card was expired and exchnaged for a residence card issued under EU Settlement Scheme.

You should note that except spouses and minor children, other relatives need to provide tangible reason to enjoy the EU law. Tourism will be the least acceptable reason.

Tourism or residence purposes, a dependent family member, especially the one previosuly recognised to be a beneficiary of the Directive and issued with Article 10 residence card is clearly a beneficary of the EU law.

Dont you think that?

Under EU law your mum is allowed to use the directive only if there is hardship or she is soley dependent on the EU citizen or his/her spouse. This rule does not apply to spouses of EU citizen or minor children.

You can not take your mum to other EU countries for the purpose of tourism.

Now UK or Northern Ireland is no more part of EU, your mum has a pre-settlement scheme card. Even if she already had an EU family permit or Residence card-EU, now she can not follow the EU citizen to his/her country of origin. Your mother can not use tourism as purpose for even EU law. Only spouses and minor kids are allowed. She is only allowed for residence that's why they require proof of dependency or hardship from her.

My advise to you, She will need to apply for a normal visa, submit normal documentation for Irish visit visa and pay visa fees.

*A spouse or a minor child of an EU citizen technically dont even need a visa to travel within EU.*

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Under EU law your mum is allowed to use the directive only if there is hardship or she is soley dependent on the EU citizen or his/her spouse. This rule does not apply to spouses of EU citizen or minor children.

You can not take your mum to other EU countries for the purpose of tourism.

Now UK or Northern Ireland is no more part of EU, your mum has a pre-settlement scheme card. Even if she already had an EU family permit or Residence card-EU, now she can not follow the EU citizen to his/her country of origin. Your mother can not use tourism as purpose for even EU law. Only spouses and minor kids are allowed. She is only allowed for residence that's why they require proof of dependency or hardship from her.

My advise to you, She will need to apply for a normal visa, submit normal documentation for Irish visit visa and pay visa fees.

*A spouse or a minor child of an EU citizen technically dont even need a visa to travel within EU.*

Hi Angel, thank you for yuor efforts to help but your input is even more confusing.

An EU citizen can be accompanied throughout EU by a non-EU family member in ascending or descending line for any reason (Articles 2 and 3 of the Directive). A visa, if such relative is a visa national, should be issued based on an accelerated procedure, free of charge, and can be lodged directly to the embassy, bypassing visa processing facilities, such as VAC (Article 5). Let me quote here

Article 5 Right of entry

1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.

No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure


Thank you for your efforts to help to get to the bottom of that though

[Angel99]

Under EU law your mum is allowed to use the directive only if there is hardship or she is soley dependent on the EU citizen or his/her spouse. This rule does not apply to spouses of EU citizen or minor children.

You can not take your mum to other EU countries for the purpose of tourism.

Now UK or Northern Ireland is no more part of EU, your mum has a pre-settlement scheme card. Even if she already had an EU family permit or Residence card-EU, now she can not follow the EU citizen to his/her country of origin. Your mother can not use tourism as purpose for even EU law. Only spouses and minor kids are allowed. She is only allowed for residence that's why they require proof of dependency or hardship from her.

My advise to you, She will need to apply for a normal visa, submit normal documentation for Irish visit visa and pay visa fees.

*A spouse or a minor child of an EU citizen technically dont even need a visa to travel within EU.*

Hi Angel, thank you for yuor efforts to help but your input is even more confusing.

An EU citizen can be accompanied throughout EU by a non-EU family member in ascending or descending line for any reason (Articles 2 and 3 of the Directive). A visa, if such relative is a visa national, should be issued based on an accelerated procedure, free of charge, and can be lodged directly to the embassy, bypassing visa processing facilities, such as VAC (Article 5). Let me quote here

Article 5 Right of entry

1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.

No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure


Thank you for your efforts to help to get to the bottom of that though

Understand a spouse and a minor child of an EU citizen is not in the same category as dependant relatives. Parents need to proof dependency or hardship. Tourism can not be used for this purpose.

An Irish is an EU citizen in the EU and an Irish in the UK.

beneficiaries of Irish citizens except spouses and minor children to return with them to Ireland from UK has ceased.

Best you try to apply for your mum with EU law to Ireland and you will see the outcome.

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Understand a spouse and a minor child of an EU citizen is not in the same category as dependant relatives. Parents need to proof dependency or hardship. Tourism can not be used for this purpose.

An Irish is an EU citizen in the EU and an Irish in the UK.

beneficiaries of Irish citizens except spouses and minor children to return with them to Ireland from UK has ceased.

Best you try to apply for your mum with EU law to Ireland and you will see the outcome.

Thank you Angel, I appreciate you and your efforts to help.

I think I will submit a case on Europa Plus and Solvit. If i am mistaken, it makes no difference to be mistaken once or twice.