Entry into Schengen with spouse (Non EU)

[theolddog]

Hi

I am an EU National (Irish) residing in Gibraltar with my wife and children. My wife is a UK national.

When crossing into Spain (Schengen) the border guards are denying her entry stating she is a third country national and she needs a valid reason to enter Schengen. Their reason is UK left EU and she is a third country national and she requires proof of stay, money and valid reason. They are not giving a rejection stamp in passport so to me it seems political?

She is present with me, so surely she has the same rights as she is married to me? Can anybody please advise?

[meself2]

Did they give you anything in writing? Did you have proof that you're married (ie marriage cert)?

Your family member doesn't have the same rights as you, but they're able to avail of simplified entry - for example, they shouldn't be needing proof of stay and so on, as they're accompaniying you to an EU country. It is a bit complex since you're entering from a nonEU country to persuade border officials, as visa form (stating all you need a is a select list of documents) covers nonEU visa nationals.

Or you might just give in and come ther with bank statements/etc.

[theolddog]

Hi
Thanks for the quick reply. I did some reading of other posts and there were to
Many EU documents and legislations I got Confused.

We didn’t have our marriage certificate with us but will do next time. To our dismay the border guard simply stated that the UK voted brexit and that is all (with a smile)

Would it help if I printed off some EU law documents (in Spanish, and highlight the relevant sections)? UK Nationals do not need EU visas at present?

[alterhase58]

UK citizens can enter the whole of the EU as visitors for 90 days, whether accompanied by an EU spouse or not. Nothing to do with Schengen. The reverse is also the case, EU citizens >UK for 180 days. Except for Irish citizens which have free movement IE<>UK under the CTA.

[meself2]

UK citizens can enter the whole of the EU as visitors for 90 days, whether accompanied by an EU spouse or not.

I feel like there's a bit of a difference if a person is accompanying their EU spouse in terms of the border treatment, which OP wishes to utilize.

Without EU spouse, a person is just regarded as a tourist, so border control officers can (and usually do) ask for things like bank statements, hotel bookings, return ticket, insurance and the like - https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Embajadas ... spana.aspx as an example. If a Brit shows up on a one-way plane ticket with 100 pounds in their bank account, EU border guards might as well return them back since they cannot be sure this person can sustain themselves abroad without working, for example.

With the EU spouse, border control folks are supposed to be more lenient, without that much scrutiny, as the person is an immediate family member of a EU citizen - no need for all this extra documents as EU citizen is excercising their rights.

But yea, the simplest option might be just to provide the reasons for your spouse to go to Spain, as well as her finanical statements and such. I wouldn't expect you to just go there without any savings or accomodation anyway.

[Angel99]

UK citizens can enter the whole of the EU as visitors for 90 days, whether accompanied by an EU spouse or not.

I feel like there's a bit of a difference if a person is accompanying their EU spouse in terms of the border treatment, which OP wishes to utilize.

Without EU spouse, a person is just regarded as a tourist, so border control officers can (and usually do) ask for things like bank statements, hotel bookings, return ticket, insurance and the like - https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Embajadas ... spana.aspx as an example. If a Brit shows up on a one-way plane ticket with 100 pounds in their bank account, EU border guards might as well return them back since they cannot be sure this person can sustain themselves abroad without working, for example.

With the EU spouse, border control folks are supposed to be more lenient, without that much scrutiny, as the person is an immediate family member of a EU citizen - no need for all this extra documents as EU citizen is excercising their rights.

But yea, the simplest option might be just to provide the reasons for your spouse to go to Spain, as well as her finanical statements and such. I wouldn't expect you to just go there without any savings or accomodation anyway.

You are right about the border force to be lenient but the OP's spouse is not supposed to provide any financial statement other than their marriage certificate, flight, train or bus ticket and their I.D's. It's doesn't matter if they are entering from non EU country to an EU country land border. By EU law OP's suppose has right for a visa via land border.

There are alot of such cases whereby they crossed from Turkey to Greece or Morocco to the North Africa Spanish side Ceuta.

As we discussed before, If a non EU is married to an EU citizen and they are yet to establish residence in an EU country, So far as the non EU is with the EU citizen he has same rights as an EU citizen.

[Angel99]

Hi
Thanks for the quick reply. I did some reading of other posts and there were to
Many EU documents and legislations I got Confused.

We didn’t have our marriage certificate with us but will do next time. To our dismay the border guard simply stated that the UK voted brexit and that is all (with a smile)

Would it help if I printed off some EU law documents (in Spanish, and highlight the relevant sections)? UK Nationals do not need EU visas at present?

As alterhase58 stated your spouse can enter EU with a visa waiver and after he is in EU and you are travelling or living with him, he will no longer be considered as a tourist or with visa waiver. His status will automatically change to EU spouse with same rights as you so far as he is not living in your country of origin. However some EU countries like Spain, Portugal, Czechia, Poland and Italy still apply the EU law to their own citizen immediate family members.

Next time you are entering Spain via Gibraltar, either travel by plane or your husband should inform the land border he is entering EU with EU visa waiver for UK citizens as tourist. Don't forget to have your marriage certificate translated with you so that after he enters EU his status will change to EU spouse and he will have unlimited stay in EU.

[Ticktack]

UK citizens can enter the whole of the EU as visitors for 90 days, whether accompanied by an EU spouse or not.

I feel like there's a bit of a difference if a person is accompanying their EU spouse in terms of the border treatment, which OP wishes to utilize.

Without EU spouse, a person is just regarded as a tourist, so border control officers can (and usually do) ask for things like bank statements, hotel bookings, return ticket, insurance and the like - https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Embajadas ... spana.aspx as an example. If a Brit shows up on a one-way plane ticket with 100 pounds in their bank account, EU border guards might as well return them back since they cannot be sure this person can sustain themselves abroad without working, for example.

With the EU spouse, border control folks are supposed to be more lenient, without that much scrutiny, as the person is an immediate family member of a EU citizen - no need for all this extra documents as EU citizen is excercising their rights.

But yea, the simplest option might be just to provide the reasons for your spouse to go to Spain, as well as her finanical statements and such. I wouldn't expect you to just go there without any savings or accomodation anyway.

I completely disagree with all this assertions. A Brit is a Brit regardless of family encumbrances. Should be treated as such. Britain remains visa free, so not confined to many interrogations about account details et al. I have travelled to many EU countries post brexit. Portugal, Spain, Cyprus, The Netherlands to name a few. I've only been asked a question once in Amsterdam, and it was as simple as how long are you here for!
The immigration officers OP encountered where overzealous. He should have requested to see a manager and get something in writing. That would have set them back on the straight and narrow.
I've never even encountered questions like accounts and place to stay in USA or Canada. And it doesn't get any stricter than the Americans.
We give the EU citizens easy access at immigration here in the UK, and is expected from them.
Law of reciprocity.

[meself2]

Britain remains visa free, so no confined to many interrogations about account details et al.

I have to disagree with that.

There are three main categories of folks on EU border - EU citizens (who can come and go as they please), non-visa required nationals (Brits and the like) and visa nationals. While first ones can just walk in EU queue and pass through without any questions asked, other nationals, both visa and non-visa required, are subject to further scrutiny.
Border officials can and do ask for people to see their documents, reasons to stay and so on, as they seem fit. Most likely you, as a seasoned traveler, didn't raise any questions, but it's not like this for everyone. After Brexit, there's not much of a difference between Brit and, for example, an American - they're both visa free, but still need to prove their reasons to be here and financial stability. That's the new norm.
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advic ... quirements

If you enter the Schengen area as a tourist, you may need to provide additional documents at the border. As well as a valid return or onward ticket, when travelling to Spain you could be asked to show:

you have enough money for your stay
proof of accommodation for your stay, for example:
a hotel booking confirmation
proof of address if visiting your own property (such as second home)
an invitation or proof of address if staying with a third party, friends or family. A carta de invitation completed by your hosts is one of the options available.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... /cbp-9157/

British citizens can no longer use the border control lanes for EU citizens and, usually, must have their passport stamped upon entry/exit to the EU. EU countries’ border officials may ask to see supporting documents such as an invitation letter, proof of accommodation and finances, and a return or round-trip ticket when assessing whether to give permission to enter the country as a visitor.

In this case I agree, border control officers seemed to be unnecessarily strict, as he was supposed to give every opportunity for OP and his wife tovproce they're married (and therefore family member of EU citizen) and I suspect that was the reason for no documentation. OP needs to be more assertive and bring their marriage cert indeed.

[Vadrar]

Britain remains visa free, so no confined to many interrogations about account details et al.

I have to disagree with that.

There are three main categories of folks on EU border - EU citizens (who can come and go as they please), non-visa required nationals (Brits and the like) and visa nationals. While first ones can just walk in EU queue and pass through without any questions asked, other nationals, both visa and non-visa required, are subject to further scrutiny.
Border officials can and do ask for people to see their documents, reasons to stay and so on, as they seem fit. Most likely you, as a seasoned traveler, didn't raise any questions, but it's not like this for everyone. After Brexit, there's not much of a difference between Brit and, for example, an American - they're both visa free, but still need to prove their reasons to be here and financial stability. That's the new norm.
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advic ... quirements

If you enter the Schengen area as a tourist, you may need to provide additional documents at the border. As well as a valid return or onward ticket, when travelling to Spain you could be asked to show:

you have enough money for your stay
proof of accommodation for your stay, for example:
a hotel booking confirmation
proof of address if visiting your own property (such as second home)
an invitation or proof of address if staying with a third party, friends or family. A carta de invitation completed by your hosts is one of the options available.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... /cbp-9157/

British citizens can no longer use the border control lanes for EU citizens and, usually, must have their passport stamped upon entry/exit to the EU. EU countries’ border officials may ask to see supporting documents such as an invitation letter, proof of accommodation and finances, and a return or round-trip ticket when assessing whether to give permission to enter the country as a visitor.

In this case I agree, border control officers seemed to be unnecessarily strict, as he was supposed to give every opportunity for OP and his wife tovproce they're married (and therefore family member of EU citizen) and I suspect that was the reason for no documentation. OP needs to be more assertive and bring their marriage cert indeed.

What meself2 said. EU border officials have the right to ask for proof of funds, accommodation, health coverage and return ticket of all non-EU citizens. As the OP didn’t bring a marriage cert officials are within their rights to not accept they were spouses. But the officials were being overly officious - and probably triggered by the blasé assumption that the border could be crossed without marriage cert or proof of resources. It is very common at the Gibraltar border recently - the post-Brexit agreement hasn’t been reached there (unless it has just happened) and tensions are high.

Border reciprocity is a common principle but by no means overrules sovereignty - the 90 in 180 allowance versus 180 in 365 is an obvious example. And in any case this inconsistent and unpredictable experience at the Gibraltar border is experienced frequently in return by EU citizens crossing into Gibraltar.

[theolddog]

Thank you all

Next time such situation happens I’ll show the marriage certificate. Should I get it translated and apostle stamped?

[Angel99]

Thank you all

Next time such situation happens I’ll show the marriage certificate. Should I get it translated and apostle stamped?

Yes translate the marriage cert to the country's national langauge you are traveling to. It has to be by a certified translator. The marriage certificate if it's not from EU has to be apostiled.

[theolddog]

Hi all

Just a quick update.

So, last week we finally got stamped certified copies of marriage and birth certificate for our daughter. Also had the original wedding certificate appostiled

So today, we went to Spain and at the border I kindly asked for two stamps for my daughter and wife.

He asked the reason why we all come into Spain. I replied , sorry I am an EU national and presented him with a letter (in Spanish) explaining we are exercising 2004/38/EC directive and they are exempt from visas.

He was quite rude, and said no, they’re not coming into Spain. I pointed out the Schengen border guards manual and the sections which related to this directive and how they must do minimal checks on my wife and daughter. Again be said no way this is false and we are not coming to Spain.

Anyway, dug heels in after he made a phone call and walked off with our passports he then returned, stamped their passports and off we went.

Thank you to all on this forum for sharing such powerful knowledge.

I just hope the political situation at the Gibraltar border eases!!

[Ticktack]

Hi all

Just a quick update.

So, last week we finally got stamped certified copies of marriage and birth certificate for our daughter. Also had the original wedding certificate appostiled

So today, we went to Spain and at the border I kindly asked for two stamps for my daughter and wife.

He asked the reason why we all come into Spain. I replied , sorry I am an EU national and presented him with a letter (in Spanish) explaining we are exercising 2004/38/EC directive and they are exempt from visas.

He was quite rude, and said no, they’re not coming into Spain. I pointed out the Schengen border guards manual and the sections which related to this directive and how they must do minimal checks on my wife and daughter. Again be said no way this is false and we are not coming to Spain.

Anyway, dug heels in after he made a phone call and walked off with our passports he then returned, stamped their passports and off we went.

Thank you to all on this forum for sharing such powerful knowledge.

I just hope the political situation at the Gibraltar border eases!!

Congratulations, like I said, sometimes you have to stand your ground. It might be escalated, but it would get escalated to someone that actually knows the rules. That's why they are managers.

[Deeyo]

Hi all, I also tried this as the Gibraltar Spain border and they told my wife and I no.

I’m a Nigerian national and my wife is a Portuguese national. We walked up to the Spain border with our marriage certificate, copies of the visa code handbook, copies of the Eu freedom of movement law, passports and asked for a visa at the border for me since I’m a non eu spouse accompanying my Eu spouse.

They told me from the get go that they don’t issue visas at the border, and I told them that according to the directive they’re supposed to. They kept insisting this isn’t the case and I need to have applied for the visa beforehand. They also spoke with their supervisor as well and he said no that I needed a visa. They also mentioned that I needed proof of stay, and documents proving that I had money.

The worst part is I asked the French borders officers while I was in London a few weeks ago the same thing and they told me I didn’t need a visa since I was married to an Eu national, I told the Spanish border officers what the French border officers said and they said “every Schengen country is different and has different rules”

After a while of my wife and I arguing with them, they threatened to give me a formal denial of entry stamp if I didn’t leave. We had to leave in the end just to avoid any problems for me in the future.

[theolddog]

Did you ask for an interpreter?

Did you have a copy of the 2004/38/EC document?

I had all this with me and the certificates to provide family connections translated officially from Spanish.

They’ve all been briefed at the border about this law last week.

[Deeyo]

They already had a translator who was translating everything for us, plus my wife knows a bit of Spanish so she was able to translate as well.

Yes, I had a copy of both the 2004/38/EC document and also the Schengen visa code handbook on my phone and I showed them the wording where they said it, but they also pulled up the visa code handbook on their end and read out the info for anyone applying for a visa at the border, which includes emergencies or if you’re ill and not regarding non Eu spouses.

They were briefed about this? Really?? They were acting like they’ve never heard of this rule before even after I showed them the wording.

[Angel99]

They already had a translator who was translating everything for us, plus my wife knows a bit of Spanish so she was able to translate as well.

Yes, I had a copy of both the 2004/38/EC document and also the Schengen visa code handbook on my phone and I showed them the wording where they said it, but they also pulled up the visa code handbook on their end and read out the info for anyone applying for a visa at the border, which includes emergencies or if you’re ill and not regarding non Eu spouses.

They were briefed about this? Really?? They were acting like they’ve never heard of this rule before even after I showed them the wording.

Bare inmind the Spanish border are known for discrimination and interpret laws in their own way. They're very aware you can receive an entry stamp at land border or airport

You should have dared them to put the entry refusal on your passport then use that against them.

[Deeyo]

Yeah, before I came to Gibraltar, I already heard that they were very discriminatory and a bit hostile, but I wanted to try anyways hoping they wouldn’t be like that with me.

They clearly lied to me at first saying that they don’t give visas at the border, then a few minutes later, they said “oh, actually we do give visas at the border, but you’re not eligible “

I wish I stood my ground more and dared them to put the refusal stamp on my passport, but I got scared as I’m still living in the Uk on a spouse visa and I don’t want to have to put in my next application form that I got refused at the border.

[lolo2]

This situation at the Gibraltar-Spain border has been always the same for non-EU people crossing on foot, for a number of reasons. It's happened even well before Brexit.

I would suggest to avoid crossing this border on foot if you are not an EU citizen, even if you're married to an EU citizen or from an EU visa-free country.

[Deeyo]

Yeah, I think I’m never going through that border ever again lol.

I’m going to try this next at the French border and see how it goes.

[meself2]

You can always apply for a visa in advance as well.

[Ticktack]

You can always apply for a visa in advance as well.

Always the best advise. Save yourself the hassle.

[theolddog]

Quick follow up question to anyone who can advise..

We were asked the other day ‘where were we married’. When I replied England, he shook his head, yet stamped my wife’s passport and returned the documents.

The fact we were married in England should bear no meaning as the certificate is translated and apostille.

I’m guessing he was being over zealous,

[Angel99]

Quick follow up question to anyone who can advise..

We were asked the other day ‘where were we married’. When I replied England, he shook his head, yet stamped my wife’s passport and returned the documents.

The fact we were married in England should bear no meaning as the certificate is translated and apostille.

I’m guessing he was being over zealous,

You can not register marriages conducted abroad in Uk. Since most countries in mainland Europe require that to recognise the marriage to prevent sham/fake marriage. Maybe that's why he shook his head.

Or he just did that because he is annoyed UK left EU.