Applying for BC-Some Queries

[dave000]

Hello All,

After much discussion, my British spouse and I have decided to go ahead with BC for myself. My birth country doesn't allow dual citizenship so it is not an easy decision but it seems practical for now. I will need help as I go along this road but at the moment I have the following query:

I am in the process of buying a flat in India and for practical purposes, it would be useful to do it as an Indian citizen. Roughly the date of possession would be April-May 2024. Given this background, if I apply for BC in Jan 2024, looking at the naturalisation timeline, it appears that from Biometric to approval, it takes roughly 12 weeks (it could be more if the case is complex which could be/or not in my case). If I get approval in April 2024 for instance, can I then postpone my ceremony by booking a date sometime in August 2024 or so? This will allow me to own the flat while still being Indian.

I am not aware of the ceremony procedure so any insights on how it is booked would be very helpful.

Thanks.

[meself2]

can I then postpone my ceremony by booking a date sometime in August 2024 or so?

No. You have 90 days from the day of approval to attend it, otherwise you lose the fee and have to start all over.

The way it's booked differs as it's handled by local council.

[contorted_svy]

Standard processing times are 6 months from biometrics and you have 45 working days to attend the biometrics after you apply. after then, there is no way to track your application and as meself stated you have 90 days from when you get approved. It is probably safest to apply closer to when you are going to get ownership of the house (so eg apply in March-April 2024, once it is clearer that you will become the owner of the flat eg in April, and postpone biometrics towards the end of the 45 calendar days if you want to allow for extra time).

When you receive approval you have 90 days to attend a ceremony with your council. Please note that every council is different and have a different number of slots available for ceremonies.

[dave000]

Thank you both. That's very helpful.

I have time now so I am planning to complete as much as I can with regards to the BC application and documents. Could you please help with the following?

1. My spouse is a British citizen so I can apply now with an ILR. However, I was out of the UK from 13-12-2020 to 01-02-2021 so I will only apply somewhere around 05-02-2024 (with biometrics in March 2024). Is this okay? I know that I should be in the UK exactly 3 years before the date of application. In the last 12 months, I was out for a very short time so that is fine.
2. In the documents section relating to the marriage certificate, they are asking for all pages from the spouse's passport. Not sure why this would be required as my absence from the UK is to be checked and not my spouse's. I would scan all (maybe including blank) along with the marriage certificate when the time comes but was just curious to know why.
3. Does the date on the referee declaration form matter? If I get it signed this month and upload it in Feb 2024, then does it matter?
4. Lastly, regarding the referees. Am I right in thinking that the first referee can be of any nationality? I know people in India who work in private banks in India? Would one of them be okay? Also, I can ask our family dentist and doctor in India. At the moment, I can think of people in private banks, working as doctors/dentists in India.

Many thanks.

[contorted_svy]

Thank you both. That's very helpful.

I have time now so I am planning to complete as much as I can with regards to the BC application and documents. Could you please help with the following?

1. My spouse is a British citizen so I can apply now with an ILR. However, I was out of the UK from 13-12-2020 to 01-02-2021 so I will only apply somewhere around 05-02-2024 (with biometrics in March 2024). Is this okay? I know that I should be in the UK exactly 3 years before the date of application. In the last 12 months, I was out for a very short time so that is fine. If you plan to apply on the 5/2/2024 you need to have been in the UK on the 6/2/2021. The earliest date I would apply in your case is the 03/02/2024.
2. In the documents section relating to the marriage certificate, they are asking for all pages from the spouse's passport. Not sure why this would be required as my absence from the UK is to be checked and not my spouse's. I would scan all (maybe including blank) along with the marriage certificate when the time comes but was just curious to know why. No idea.
3. Does the date on the referee declaration form matter? If I get it signed this month and upload it in Feb 2024, then does it matter? As far as it is recent it should be OK. I got mine signed in the last month of the qualifying period.
4. Lastly, regarding the referees. Am I right in thinking that the first referee can be of any nationality? I know people in India who work in private banks in India? Would one of them be okay? Also, I can ask our family dentist and doctor in India. At the moment, I can think of people in private banks, working as doctors/dentists in India. If you are applying from the UK I believe (but I am not entirely sure, looking for guidance) you are expected to provide referees that live in the UK, of any nationality, but should be UK based. Non-UK based is allowed for applicants that live outside of the UK (eg people that have a claim to citizenship by descent). Please note that for certain professions "professional" means they have to be chartered in a recognised professional body.

Many thanks.

[alterhase58]

Re #2: normally to prove spouse is BC only the details page of the passport are needed (spouse's travels are irrelevant).
As said we wouldn't know why all pages are asked for.

[contorted_svy]

I couldn't find anywhere a final word about the fact that the first referee has to live in the UK, though it would be a safer bet I would imagine. Both my referees were British and living in the UK. If I find anything I will report back.

Please note that medical doctors are not on the list of acceptable professions: https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passp ... ignatories

[dave000]

Thank you so much.

Regarding referees: On the first declaration form, it says "For an adult application, one referee should be a person of any nationality who has professional standing, eg minister of religion, civil servant, or a member of a professional body e.g. accountant or solicitor (who is not representing you with this application)". There is no clarity of him/her being based in the UK and of any nationality.

[contorted_svy]

Yes, I agree. I was looking for anything that would clarify that further but I couldn't find an example. For applicants that don't live outside the UK there is a note in the guidance saying that a referee from another country is acceptable if the applicant can't find any British people who are suitable, if the caseworker is satisfied with their signature. If you want to use a professional referee in another country it is best to make sure they are a member of the relevant chartered body in their country - I have no idea how UKVI verifies this.

[dave000]

Hello,

My query is regarding notification of approval and the subsequent ceremony which has to be attended in the 90-day time period. Is all the correspondence done by e-mail or is it a letter posted to the address? It would be good to know if by chance we are away after biometrics and perhaps nearer the decision time. Do both UKVI and the council correspond by email?

Regarding my spouse's passport who is British, would it be okay if I only scan the pages that have stamps and not blank? As per their requirements, all the pages must be scanned so I thought to check.

Many thanks for answering my queries.

I plan to submit it in the first week of next month.

[alterhase58]

Hello,

My query is regarding notification of approval and the subsequent ceremony which has to be attended in the 90-day time period. Is all the correspondence done by e-mail or is it a letter posted to the address? It would be good to know if by chance we are away after biometrics and perhaps nearer the decision time. Do both UKVI and the council correspond by email? Yes - it seems most if not all do this now - please check your Spam and deleted item folders, just in case. Anything "gov.uk".

Regarding my spouse's passport who is British, would it be okay if I only scan the pages that have stamps and not blank? As per their requirements, all the pages must be scanned so I thought to check. for British spouse you only scan the biometrics and other data pages her absences are not required/not relevant.

Many thanks for answering my queries.

I plan to submit it in the first week of next month.

[dave000]

Hello,

I have three queries as of now. These are:
1. I am applying for BC based on the spouse of a British citizen wherein I fulfil all the eligibility requirements (as far as I know). In that case, do I have to provide any immigration reference nos./details of living in the UK as a student before getting married and after a gap of a few years of not being in the UK? As of now, I have provided all the details of my immigration as a spouse of a British citizen since the start. Also, I don't think I remember those details when I was here as a student.

2. My second referee who has to be a British citizen holds dual nationality, that is, British and another country. Does this matter?

3. Thinking positively and assuming if BC and British passport are granted and I am through all the processes, do I need to be mindful about absences from the UK being a naturalised citizen just in case?

Thanks as always.

[alterhase58]

Hello,

I have three queries as of now. These are:
1. I am applying for BC based on the spouse of a British citizen wherein I fulfil all the eligibility requirements (as far as I know). In that case, do I have to provide any immigration reference nos./details of living in the UK as a student before getting married and after a gap of a few years of not being in the UK? As of now, I have provided all the details of my immigration as a spouse of a British citizen since the start. Also, I don't think I remember those details when I was here as a student.
For student visa mention what you remember, year/month, these details are not deal breakers. UKVI may not have all data.
2. My second referee who has to be a British citizen holds dual nationality, that is, British and another country. Does this matter?
No - his other citizenship is not relevant.
3. Thinking positively and assuming if BC and British passport are granted and I am through all the processes, do I need to be mindful about absences from the UK being a naturalised citizen just in case?
The passport is not granted by this application. You need to apply separately to HMPO once you are British. PP is a travel document and not absolute proof you are British. A British citizen can be away from the UK at will, come and go, stay away, even forever just like any other citizen..
Thanks as always.

[contorted_svy]

Hello,

I have three queries as of now. These are:
1. I am applying for BC based on the spouse of a British citizen wherein I fulfil all the eligibility requirements (as far as I know). In that case, do I have to provide any immigration reference nos./details of living in the UK as a student before getting married and after a gap of a few years of not being in the UK? As of now, I have provided all the details of my immigration as a spouse of a British citizen since the start. Also, I don't think I remember those details when I was here as a student.

2. My second referee who has to be a British citizen holds dual nationality, that is, British and another country. Does this matter?

3. Thinking positively and assuming if BC and British passport are granted and I am through all the processes, do I need to be mindful about absences from the UK being a naturalised citizen just in case?

Thanks as always.

British citizen and British passport are not the same, once you are granted citizenship you will need to apply for a passport, but no need to prove your absences. If you are a visa national strongly suggest to apply for a British passport as soon as possible once you naturalise as British as your ILR will no longer be valid and there could be issues at the border.

[dave000]

Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, I understand both British citizenship and a British passport are two different processes and I need to be successful in both by applying for each one after the other. However, after some more research, I have come to know that there is a different language used for the professional referee requirements for BC and British passport (wherein a professional is needed to confirm identity unlike BC where a professional of any nationality and a British citizen are asked to sign respective forms and provide some personal details).

The difference in language is as such. For a British passport, it is stated that You cannot confirm someone’s identity if:

you’re related by birth or marriage [This is interesting as it states not related by birth or marriage as far as the applicant is concerned? For instance, not the husband/wife of the applicant but a brother-in-law could be okay. Is this the correct interpretation?

In contrast, the first referee declaration for BC clearly says "not be a relative". In this case, brother/sister-in-laws, etc. wouldn't be considered.

I hope I am making sense. As I am applying for BC, I should also be ready for the British Passport procedure as in this case, the application would only move further until the referee confirms my identity. Am I correct in guessing if needed, I can change the professional referee for British Passport? It doesn't have to be the same as BC application? Also just would like to know if it would be okay to use my brother in law as a professional referee for the British Passport application (if and when I reach that stage) as he is a retired social worker and a British citizen? I have seen some threads wherein HMPO has asked for second/third referees for some reason. Hence, it would be good to keep a handful of professional referees for British Passport as they will be contacted.

Also, it would be great if you could briefly mention the process of contacting a professional referee/confirming the identity by HMPO? I should let the referee know what he/she is supposed to do when contacted by e-mail for identity confirmation for an online first-time adult British passport.

Many thanks.

[CR001]

You cannot use your brother innlaw as a referee for naturalisation or british passport. He is a relative through marriage.

[contorted_svy]

Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, I understand both British citizenship and a British passport are two different processes and I need to be successful in both by applying for each one after the other. However, after some more research, I have come to know that there is a different language used for the professional referee requirements for BC and British passport (wherein a professional is needed to confirm identity unlike BC where a professional of any nationality and a British citizen are asked to sign respective forms and provide some personal details).

The difference in language is as such. For a British passport, it is stated that You cannot confirm someone’s identity if:

you’re related by birth or marriage [This is interesting as it states not related by birth or marriage as far as the applicant is concerned? For instance, not the husband/wife of the applicant but a brother-in-law could be okay. Is this the correct interpretation?

In contrast, the first referee declaration for BC clearly says "not be a relative". In this case, brother/sister-in-laws, etc. wouldn't be considered.

I hope I am making sense. As I am applying for BC, I should also be ready for the British Passport procedure as in this case, the application would only move further until the referee confirms my identity. Am I correct in guessing if needed, I can change the professional referee for British Passport? It doesn't have to be the same as BC application? Also just would like to know if it would be okay to use my brother in law as a professional referee for the British Passport application (if and when I reach that stage) as he is a retired social worker and a British citizen? I have seen some threads wherein HMPO has asked for second/third referees for some reason. Hence, it would be good to keep a handful of professional referees for British Passport as they will be contacted.

Also, it would be great if you could briefly mention the process of contacting a professional referee/confirming the identity by HMPO? I should let the referee know what he/she is supposed to do when contacted by e-mail for identity confirmation for an online first-time adult British passport.

Many thanks.

You can't use a brother in law because he is related to you through marriage for either naturalisation or citizenship. I was able to use the same professional referee for naturalisation and passport as they are British but you can change referees if you prefer. Referees are not usually contacted as part of naturalisation but you may asked to supply another one if your referee(s) don't respect the requirements.

When you give the details of the referee, HMPO sends them an email with your passport application reference number. They are asked to use that to login to the system, confirm your first and last name, your address, and confirm they recognise you from the picture you uploaded with your application.

[dave000]

Thank you so much. That's very helpful.

Regarding a British Passport - The referee requirement is somebody living in the UK, having a UK passport and knowing me for at least two years, not related and also a professional. I know somebody who fits this category. Unfortunately, I cannot use him for British Citizenship and he has known me for less than three years but for more than two years. Is it once the HMPO contacts the professional referee for the passport whatever details they add such as their UK passport number and the rest of it is directly submitted to the HMPO. It is not shared with me, right? It is just that referees get slightly uncomfortable sharing all such details DOB, passport number, etc. If it goes directly to the concerned authority then it should be okay with them.

Thanks.

[contorted_svy]

If I remember correctly you need to supply title, full name, address, date of birth, their job title, name of the employer and work address, phone number, British passport number, and an email address. Your passport referee has to be comfortable sharing these details with you or they can't act as referee.

[dave000]

Thank you so much contorted_svy

Am I correct in saying that it is okay to ask referees to scan their declaration form and e-mail it to me - This will be then uploaded by me before biometrics? What I am trying to ask is that the digital signatures of referees should be fine as the whole process is anyway digital?

From what I know it is that the referees are not generally contacted - one of my referees has asked that and I have passed on that information. On the off chance, if they do contact then is it by e-mail or phone? It might be the case that an e-mail is sent and it goes to the junk folder of the referee or anything of that sort. I can't expect my referees to check their e-mails thoroughly now and then.

Also, an application is not rejected if they don't find the referee to be suitable, right? They would be asking for another one? I am just curious to know if there are any cases/threads on the forum wherein they have asked for another referee or rejected for that matter. I am just anxious so would like to dig a little more into this.

Many thanks.

[alterhase58]

Thank you so much contorted_svy

Am I correct in saying that it is okay to ask referees to scan their declaration form and e-mail it to me - This will be then uploaded by me before biometrics? What I am trying to ask is that the digital signatures of referees should be fine as the whole process is anyway digital? Yes.

From what I know it is that the referees are not generally contacted - one of my referees has asked that and I have passed on that information. On the off chance, if they do contact then is it by e-mail or phone? It might be the case that an e-mail is sent and it goes to the junk folder of the referee or anything of that sort. I can't expect my referees to check their e-mails thoroughly now and then.
I vaguely remember (years ago?) a post about referee was contacted by phone about something. I would remember if it was something serious.

Also, an application is not rejected if they don't find the referee to be suitable, right? They would be asking for another one? I am just curious to know if there are any cases/threads on the forum wherein they have asked for another referee or rejected for that matter. I am just anxious so would like to dig a little more into this. Problems with a referees are not a reason for refusals. They will ask for another one. Very rare I believe. Where the referee comes in is if the application turns out to be fraudulent then referee will be contacted about the matter, again not something we see regularly or at all.

Many thanks.

[contorted_svy]

Thank you so much contorted_svy

Am I correct in saying that it is okay to ask referees to scan their declaration form and e-mail it to me - This will be then uploaded by me before biometrics? What I am trying to ask is that the digital signatures of referees should be fine as the whole process is anyway digital? Yes all digital. Signature needs to be consistent with what appears on their passport (eg not typed).

From what I know it is that the referees are not generally contacted - one of my referees has asked that and I have passed on that information. On the off chance, if they do contact then is it by e-mail or phone? It might be the case that an e-mail is sent and it goes to the junk folder of the referee or anything of that sort. I can't expect my referees to check their e-mails thoroughly now and then. They aren't normally contacted. I know a person whose family member had their referee being contacted by the HO. I don't know if it was by phone or email.

Also, an application is not rejected if they don't find the referee to be suitable, right? They would be asking for another one? I am just curious to know if there are any cases/threads on the forum wherein they have asked for another referee or rejected for that matter. I am just anxious so would like to dig a little more into this. They would ask for another referee.

Many thanks.

[dave000]

Hi,

I was about to submit my BC application and encountered something I had missed - It is about referees. I have managed to get two referees, one not British but of professional standing and another British above 25 but without a British Passport. This referee according to me is also a professional as he is a manager in a company. Does this second referee need to have a British passport? Can't he be just a British citizen without a passport? Do you think I can proceed with the application even if the second referee does not have a British passport? Please suggest.

Also regarding the Referee Declaration Form - There are in total two pages.
I stuck my photo on the first page and asked my referees to write my name. That's all that is needed, I think.
On the second page, the only details asked of the referees are their name, sign and date. I think I have got the correct Declaration forms?

Many thanks.

[PM74Juve]

Hi,

I was about to submit my BC application and encountered something I had missed - It is about referees. I have managed to get two referees, one not British but of professional standing and another British above 25 but without a British Passport. This referee according to me is also a professional as he is a manager in a company. Does this second referee need to have a British passport? Can't he be just a British citizen without a passport? Do you think I can proceed with the application even if the second referee does not have a British passport? Please suggest.

Also regarding the Referee Declaration Form - There are in total two pages.
I stuck my photo on the first page and asked my referees to write my name. That's all that is needed, I think.
On the second page, the only details asked of the referees are their name, sign and date. I think I have got the correct Declaration forms?

Many thanks.

My interpretation of the referee criteria is that your non British referee of professional standing (I assume meets that criteria) is fine but that your second referee would need to be a British passport holder (and either professional or over 25). I would suggest finding someone else as referee 2 unless others here advise different. Ultimately if they decided a referee is not suitable they would ask for another.

The referee declaration forms - yes it sounds like you have correct form and that is indeed the entries required of the referees on each page.
https://visas-immigration.service.gov.u ... on_MN1.pdf

[PM74Juve]

...oh and to add given the above discussion.... it doesn't seem clear as to whether the non British referee needs to be living in the UK but I would say don't take risk and only use UK based referees for UK based application.

I know it can be a damned pain getting referees... and frankly it is a shameful reminder of the who you know society Britain remains... getting my wife's has been difficult.... but I do think it worth focussing efforts to make sure they do meet criteria and have in mind who can similarly be professional referee for passport application if later granted citizenship.