Baby born in UK to ILR parent, Indian passport, applying for CoE RoA in India

[su632]

I want to seek advice regarding my son's immigration status.

He was born in the UK in October this year, while I had ILR.

We have obtained an Indian passport for him as me and his mother are Indian citizens. We now want to apply for a Right to Abode (RoA) certificate of entitlement (CoE) for the baby.

At the same time, we want to travel to India next month. I want to confirm whether I can apply for CoE for RoA from India itself or do I have to apply it from the UK as its not allowed to leave the UK without CoE?

[CR001]

Free to leave the uk. No visa checks are done when leaving.

You can apply abroad.

Why disd you not apply for a british passport? Child is british by birth.

[alterhase58]

You can apply from abroad and the guidance states usually three weeks processing:
https://www.gov.uk/right-of-abode/apply ... ntitlement

Travel is allowed, it's not an immigration application. The applicant (child) is a British citizen.

[su632]

Thanks for such a quick reply!

Yes we want to return to India eventually and settle there, hence no point in having a British Passport and then converting back to Indian passport.

Just wanted to check one more thing, if the child gives up British citizenship on turning 18, he could still get a UK visa if needed after that?

[su632]

You can apply from abroad and the guidance states usually three weeks processing:
https://www.gov.uk/right-of-abode/apply ... ntitlement

Travel is allowed, it's not an immigration application. The applicant (child) is a British citizen.

Yes thanks, that was one reason I wanted to apply from India as it takes less time. While applying for it from UK, just before submitting the application it mentioned that it could take upto 6 months.

[alterhase58]

Thanks for such a quick reply!

Yes we want to return to India eventually and settle there, hence no point in having a British Passport and then converting back to Indian passport. Be aware that each time the foreign passport is renewed you have to apply for new CoE. A British passport is much cheaper and lasts 10 years.

Just wanted to check one more thing, if the child gives up British citizenship on turning 18, he could still get a UK visa if needed after that? Why would child give up British citizenship? It's a valuable asset (and you didn't have to pay £1200 for registration!). If you are no longer a British citizen you have to apply in the normal way for visitor or work visas. With BP it's just a case of walking in and out of the UK without hindrance.

Re. Processing times, within UK it's standard 6 months - abroad it's faster as it's often required for children to travel to UK.

[CR001]

@alterhase58 india doesn't allow dual citizenship. At age 18, the child will be required to choose which citizenship they want to retain. This applies to children born with both nationalities.

[alterhase58]

@alterhase58 india doesn't allow dual citizenship. At age 18, the child will be required to choose which citizenship they want to retain. This applies to children born with both nationalities.

Thanks for the clarification - reference to 18 should have rang a bell ...

[razergd1]

There are 18 years until this child might have to choose.
So many things can change in 18 years....
It's better to get a passport though as eventually it means that the child will have a record in the passport office.

Your ILR record might vanish with time, if this happens then the child may de-facto loose his British citizenship.

[meself2]

There are 18 years until this child might have to choose.
So many things can change in 18 years....
It's better to get a passport though as eventually it means that the child will have a record in the passport office.

Your ILR record might vanish with time, if this happens then the child may de-facto loose his British citizenship.

Passport won't help then. See post2100453.html#p2100453

[contorted_svy]

There are 18 years until this child might have to choose.
So many things can change in 18 years....
It's better to get a passport though as eventually it means that the child will have a record in the passport office.

Your ILR record might vanish with time, if this happens then the child may de-facto loose his British citizenship.

To keep record of the child's British citizenship the best guarantee that has been identified on the forum so far is to keep the BRP of the parent that had ILR at the moment of the child's birth. A British passport isn't evidence of British citizenship.

[razergd1]

As far as I understand, new passports recorded these days in the passport office are also including the BNA act under which the person have British citizenship and whether the person is British by descent or not.
For example,
BC1(1)b BNA81' mother granted ILR month/year, OTBD

In my opinion, this sort of record in the passport office may serve in favour of an applicant in case of future doubt.

Please see,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible
For more details.

[contorted_svy]

As far as I understand, new passports recorded these days in the passport office are also including the BNA act under which the person have British citizenship and whether the person is British by descent or not.
For example,
BC1(1)b BNA81' mother granted ILR month/year, OTBD

In my opinion, this sort of record in the passport office may serve in favour of an applicant in case of future doubt.

Please see,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible
For more details.

I have received my first British passport a month ago and it doesn't explicitly say anything about my entitlement to citizenship. The certificate of naturalisation/registration (which do quote the section of the BNA you got citizenship under) or a birth certificate or the parent's BRP with ILR are the only evidence of citizenship that I know of. The link you quote talks about routes to citizenship but doesn't mention how to prove you are a British citizen. Do you have another official link that states that passport now record someone's citizenship? If not, better to stick with what we know - see the recent cases of people who were treated as British and couldn't get a passport because of how the HO had interpreted the law, which prompted the British Nationality (Regularisation of Past Practice) Bill. Even if those people had received a British passport it wasn't accepted as proof of British citizenship.

[razergd1]

As far as I understand, new passports recorded these days in the passport office are also including the BNA act under which the person have British citizenship and whether the person is British by descent or not.
For example,
BC1(1)b BNA81' mother granted ILR month/year, OTBD

In my opinion, this sort of record in the passport office may serve in favour of an applicant in case of future doubt.

Please see,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible
For more details.

I have received my first British passport a month ago and it doesn't explicitly say anything about my entitlement to citizenship. The certificate of naturalisation/registration (which do quote the section of the BNA you got citizenship under) or a birth certificate or the parent's BRP with ILR are the only evidence of citizenship that I know of. The link you quote talks about routes to citizenship but doesn't mention how to prove you are a British citizen. Do you have another official link that states that passport now record someone's citizenship? If not, better to stick with what we know - see the recent cases of people who were treated as British and couldn't get a passport because of how the HO had interpreted the law, which prompted the British Nationality (Regularisation of Past Practice) Bill. Even if those people had received a British passport it wasn't accepted as proof of British citizenship.

The record is internal in the passport office database. There is no mention of it on the passport itself.

It is obviously should not replace the retention of the BRP, however, in case of doubt where no other evidence exists then it's down to the balance of probabilities. If it comes down that route then such a record will work in favour of the applicant.
I guess that passport office records are accessible via SAR.

[contorted_svy]

We

As far as I understand, new passports recorded these days in the passport office are also including the BNA act under which the person have British citizenship and whether the person is British by descent or not.
For example,
BC1(1)b BNA81' mother granted ILR month/year, OTBD

In my opinion, this sort of record in the passport office may serve in favour of an applicant in case of future doubt.

Please see,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible
For more details.

I have received my first British passport a month ago and it doesn't explicitly say anything about my entitlement to citizenship. The certificate of naturalisation/registration (which do quote the section of the BNA you got citizenship under) or a birth certificate or the parent's BRP with ILR are the only evidence of citizenship that I know of. The link you quote talks about routes to citizenship but doesn't mention how to prove you are a British citizen. Do you have another official link that states that passport now record someone's citizenship? If not, better to stick with what we know - see the recent cases of people who were treated as British and couldn't get a passport because of how the HO had interpreted the law, which prompted the British Nationality (Regularisation of Past Practice) Bill. Even if those people had received a British passport it wasn't accepted as proof of British citizenship.

The record is internal in the passport office database. There is no mention of it on the passport itself.

It is obviously should not replace the retention of the BRP, however, in case of doubt where no other evidence exists then it's down to the balance of probabilities. If it comes down that route then such a record will work in favour of the applicant.
I guess that passport office records are accessible via SAR.

There is no official guidance on this - only guesses. As I pointed out, having a British passport has not been accepted as proof of being a British citizenship in the past, there are also cases on the forum, so clearly the balance of probabilities can very well not swing in the applicant's favour even when they've lived all their life and treated as British including having a British passport.

[secret.simon]

The record is internal in the passport office database

The Home Office has policies about clearing data/records on a regular basis.

Do not assume that the Home Office is going to maintain records for you.

The onus is on you, the applicant, to maintain records, not the Home Office's.

I have spoken to digital archivists in the course of my work (in IT) and they themselves state that the most reliable proof/backup is paper copies. IT (whether databases, storage media - punch cards, tape, hard drives, optical drives, etc -, storage formats-FAT32/NTFS/ext4, etc) change so regularly and so often that in a few decades, even if the physical media has not degraded (a big if), the readers may be unavailable or the OS may not be support the readers, etc (how many punch card readers does the average person see nowadays? Yet they were ubiquitous in corporate environments 50-60 years ago). According to them, it is a nightmare backing everything up on new media every few years just to keep up with changes in technology. Whereas paper and pen or other printed media have been known to last centuries if well-preserved.

I dread to think of the future where ILR status is digital. In fifty years time, it would be impossible to prove.

Also, keep in mind that the only ability to prove whether you are a British citizen by descent or otherwise than by descent, very important if your children are born outside the UK, is only possible from original documents. British passports do not state that and there is no central database that stores that information either, to the best of my knowledge. The only way to prove that status is from original documents proving your British citizenship.

And no, the balance of probabilities is more likely to be against you if you can't provide any proof except old, probably insecure passports.

And in the absence of proof, I suspect that the approach would be to assume the most restrictive interpretation, that you are either not a British citizen at all or, if you can prove that you are a British citizen, that you are a British citizen by descent, unless you can prove to the contrary.

[su632]

Wow!, my query opened some sort of a Pandora's box. Anyway, thanks for the discussion everyone, my takeaway is to preserve my ILR BRP till the child turns 18 and wants BP.

[su632]

I have another query . I am applying for my baby's CoE from India and using the link mentioned here - https://www.gov.uk/right-of-abode/apply ... ntitlement . It doesn't give an option of applying for a newborn and hence is asking me question like last 2 years' address in the UK. For now, I am filling my own addresses, as the baby is just 2 months old.

At the end, it does ask whether I am filling the form for myself or as a parent for a minor.

I hope I am using the correct link and/or filling the application in the correct way.

[contorted_svy]

If the child is younger than 2 years old, just provide address of where you live and explain in a cover note.

[secret.simon]

my takeaway is to preserve my ILR BRP till the child turns 18 and wants BP.

Your ILR BRP and your child's British birth certificate after that date will be the proof required for not only your child, but any of their children, especially if those children (your grandchildren) are born outside the UK. Those two documents together are the only legal proof of British citizenship for your child and anybody descended from them.

A British passport is a travel document and is only prima facie proof, not definitive proof of British citizenship.

Those two documents must be preserved for ever/as long as you can preserve them.

I would suggest getting a small fireproof/waterproof portable safe/briefcase to preserve such important documents.

[su632]

If the child is younger than 2 years old, just provide address of where you live and explain in a cover note.

Sure, will do, thanks!