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Such interesting opinion and helpful too. I have recently applied for an EUTR application and experienced exactly opposite where was asked to show if I have a joint account. which I dont. So, I guess this all depends upon what the officer thinks/believes.Vadrar wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 1:31 pmRequests like this are increasingly popping up about the place. Briefings from peer organisations suggest it relates to a series of investigations last year that uncovered some fraud amongst couples (dual names on docs, one person goes to home country while still accumulating reckonable residency for various permissions.) There has also been a rise in the instances of domestic abuse and household slavery uncovered.
I'm not suggesting any of that applies to you or your wife. I mention it as I imagine it is the reason they are starting to ask different questions to the past and to reassure you that you are not the only person being asked.
There seems to be a move towards requiring at least some documents in the sole name of applicant (eg bank account in sole name, not joint name, with activity proof.) I suspect that if you presented this the next time you would be less likely to get a repeat of this request. The issue with a joint account is that it can't be proved who performed the transaction - it could be just you. I'm not suggesting this is the case - I'm making no inferences on you personally - just that as the paperwork stands, it doesn't prove activity by either of you specifically.
I'm also not suggesting that a bank account in a sole name showing transactions prevents determined fraud or on its own totally prevents domestic abuse or household slavery.
For those who are looking to naturalise (and this may not relate to OP, I realise they are speaking about immigration permission; this is a general comment), the emerging suggestion is that applicants will need a bank account in their sole name (rather than a joint account as is possible now, and certainly not no bank account at all) with regular transactions if they don't have work records. There is a growing belief that this will be a future iteration of the scoresheet and we have recommended each person has their own sole named account with at least some regular monthly POS transactions for some time - if only to make applications easier. We are seeing increasing push back where applicants have no documentation in their sole name - that is, requests for additional documentation that relate to activity from them solely unless a reason (such as learning disability or debilitating health issue) why they can't have something individual to them. I suspect this is a parallel to the OP's experience in immigration permissions and indicates a fairly broad, if yet new, adoption of this approach.
There are free accounts available so it doesn't increase household costs (eg N26, BOI has a basic free account, Bunq - and I'm sure there will be others too.) However, there is no official guidance on this yet, it's merely what people involved in the area are saying, so do with this as you will.
Yes, when the immigration permission is based on dependency or partnership, then evidence of dependency/co-habitation is necessary - and so then they want joint bank accounts. It certainly makes it complicated. And frustrating that in some cases (with eg a spousal visa but an adult naturalisation application) then it may be that both a joint account (for spousal visa) and an individual account (for naturalisation) are best to cover both needs. And of course it isn't just bank accounts that are needed for records, so in cases like this the need for documentation that proves partnership and then also individual activity is just multiplied across different proof types.notme wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 1:44 pmSuch interesting opinion and helpful too. I have recently applied for an EUTR application and experienced exactly opposite where was asked to show if I have a joint account. which I dont. So, I guess this all depends upon what the officer thinks/believes.Vadrar wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 1:31 pmRequests like this are increasingly popping up about the place. Briefings from peer organisations suggest it relates to a series of investigations last year that uncovered some fraud amongst couples (dual names on docs, one person goes to home country while still accumulating reckonable residency for various permissions.) There has also been a rise in the instances of domestic abuse and household slavery uncovered.
I'm not suggesting any of that applies to you or your wife. I mention it as I imagine it is the reason they are starting to ask different questions to the past and to reassure you that you are not the only person being asked.
There seems to be a move towards requiring at least some documents in the sole name of applicant (eg bank account in sole name, not joint name, with activity proof.) I suspect that if you presented this the next time you would be less likely to get a repeat of this request. The issue with a joint account is that it can't be proved who performed the transaction - it could be just you. I'm not suggesting this is the case - I'm making no inferences on you personally - just that as the paperwork stands, it doesn't prove activity by either of you specifically.
I'm also not suggesting that a bank account in a sole name showing transactions prevents determined fraud or on its own totally prevents domestic abuse or household slavery.
For those who are looking to naturalise (and this may not relate to OP, I realise they are speaking about immigration permission; this is a general comment), the emerging suggestion is that applicants will need a bank account in their sole name (rather than a joint account as is possible now, and certainly not no bank account at all) with regular transactions if they don't have work records. There is a growing belief that this will be a future iteration of the scoresheet and we have recommended each person has their own sole named account with at least some regular monthly POS transactions for some time - if only to make applications easier. We are seeing increasing push back where applicants have no documentation in their sole name - that is, requests for additional documentation that relate to activity from them solely unless a reason (such as learning disability or debilitating health issue) why they can't have something individual to them. I suspect this is a parallel to the OP's experience in immigration permissions and indicates a fairly broad, if yet new, adoption of this approach.
There are free accounts available so it doesn't increase household costs (eg N26, BOI has a basic free account, Bunq - and I'm sure there will be others too.) However, there is no official guidance on this yet, it's merely what people involved in the area are saying, so do with this as you will.
Honestly, the advice and strategic thinking from officials can be mind-meltingly poor, outdated or just confused. And the approach in Ireland has long been at the discretion of the handling officer - which means, no, things won't be consistent. Hopefully consistent within their own rules (but not always unfortunately), but there is a very broad scope for discretion at to the point of consideration by the officer at every state. It's why absolute statements like 'this will be fine' or 'that won't be accepted' are foolhardy - discretion is applied by just about everyone in the process and that means the process can look unique to each applicant. It isn't what we would want, but it is unfortunately what we face.razor91 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 1:44 pmThanks for your response.
I understand your points regarding maintaining a sole account. In our case, my wife also has a sole account (something similar to what you mentioned). That bank is also regulated by central bank of ireland. But my only concern here is, if that was down to the fact of having both names in the statement, why was that not pointed out in the first place. It was a complete NO NO for bank statements regardless of the fact that it was a joint account or a sole account.
On the other hand, whatever this new practice coming in to place with immigration renewal it doesnt seem to be consistent across all local branches neither seems to be an approach regulated by the irish immigration. for an example, I have lived in Athlone before and the process was quite straightforward as long as we provide the documents mentioned by irish immigration officially here. https://www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-cont ... -Guide.pdf (please check page 7)
The other concern i have is, checking if someone was away from the country is straightforward thing when passport stamps are checked. why is it not checked?
Anyway these are just my thoughts on the whole incident. I wanted to get another perspective to why it is happening like this and you certainly provided me with different view point. Thank you