Refused Fiancee Visa!

[pantsri]

Hi all,
I lived in UK for nearly 10 years. Started with a student visa in 1998. In 2004, I applied for settlement but rejected (not refused) with the Home Office. 3 years passed by had not heard from the Home Office. I decided to withdrawn my application to go back to Thailand to re application, hope to be quicker but it was refused. I entered to the UK illegally via Dublin (not false document)on 2005, just because to be with my partner and unfortunately, we broke up after 6 months when I returned to the UK.

3 years later in UK, I met a new partner and lived together for 7 months but I still kept my old flat because we were on probation of the relationships. That's why we didn't have the same address on our posts. I could change my address to where we lived together for "visas purposes" but I did not. However, I left the UK during immigration amnesty period to legalize my status in Thailand on June 2008. Of course, my application was refused again. Now I am force to appeal and it costs us money. We have invested in visa applications and 2 solicitors and the appeal is really expensive so we have decide to proceed ourselves from this website. Hope you guys could help us.

I was refused on;

1. The depth of our relationships on our testimony letter ( I think it's hard to write people feeling on paper myself) & no proofs of the same address in posts that we lived together. I am not sure that there is such a rule for fiancée visa needs to proof of the same address or council tax-change of rates that 2 people lived there?
2. Bank statements of my partner had gone to overdraft limit twice in 6 months but for short period. He earns 3,000 pounds a month and overdraft limit was 1,900 pounds so an ECO suggested that we would seek public funds because he used the overdraft. We live in 2 bedrooms flat and we have very comfortable life. I was a manager back in UK too. I was in UK for 10 nearly years, why would I need public fund now? Can anyone suggest how to write a letter on this matter to show them that we have finacial stable?

3. My poor immigration history, Illegal entrance, I left the UK during the immigration amnesty period. Would this amnesty apply to me too as a fiancée visa?

What I need you guys to help me to write a letter to against the decisions. If you have any suggests and comments please do so. We really appreciate anyone who would like to assist us on this important matter.

Thanks,

[Casa]

Whether the amnesty applies depends on whether you entered or worked with false papers or under a false name.
In which country are you now?
Fiance visas tend to come under even stricter scutiny than spouse visas
when proving the relationship.

[pantsri]

Whether the amnesty applies depends on whether you entered or worked with false papers or under a false name.
In which country are you now?
Fiance visas tend to come under even stricter scutiny than spouse visas
when proving the relationship.

I am stucked in Thailand now for 5 months. I entered to Ireland with new name & passport but used previous name for work. In Thailand we can change me easily. It's a grey area about the name, what would you suggest?

[Casa]

The Home Office will be looking for any illegal entry or working under false name and NI number. I take it that you changed your name legally?
Why was the fiance visa refused and on what grounds are you appealing?

[pantsri]

The Home Office will be looking for any illegal entry or working under false name and NI number. I take it that you changed your name legally?
Why was the fiance visa refused and on what grounds are you appealing?

It is legal to change names in Thailand.
Refused on;
1.Illegal entry
2.They assumed that our relationship is not stable- both names not in the same address.
3. My partner's bank statement went to overdraft twice in 6 months but he earns 3000 pounds a months. I consider our finance is quite healthy.
It is fiance visa, we will appeal.
thank you,

[Casa]

I think you may have a problem getting around the 'illegal entry', but I wish you success at the appeal.

[pantsri]

I think you may have a problem getting around the 'illegal entry', but I wish you success at the appeal.

Thank you for your advices. I was 100% honest in an 2 hours interview. ECO was very nice during the interview but killed me by 4 pages long of refusal letter.

[Mr Rusty]

Just a few observations to help you along the way.

Applicants for a fiance visa have to prove that they have met and intend to get married and live together permanently. They aren't required to prove co-habitation prior to the application. You have to show evidence of the relationship, and I suppose that's difficult if you can't show letters or emails or phone records because you saw each other every day, but if the ECO has actually said you're refused because you can't show you were living together, he's wrong. Do you have photos and stuff like that over a length of time?

If your partner a) has never had public funds and b) has always paid the rent/mortgage on the flat in which you propose to live, it's hard to see how the ECO can allege that you will not be able to support yourself and be accommodated without recourse to public funds.

The real stumbling-block is your previous immigration history. Unless the ECO has invoked Para 320 7(B), imposing a mandatory ban, I don't think the question of an "amnesty" is relevant, and in any case 320 7(B) does not apply to spouse and fiance visa applications. What the ECO is saying is that your previous history is such that it is reasonable to doubt your motives for wanting to return to the UK. Look at it - overstayed the student visa(I bet you did?), application rejected/refused (what's the difference?), hung about for another 3 years, visa refused, illegal entry from Ireland, and then stayed for 3 years. The ECO has to set that against a 7-month relationship, which really isn't that much, particularly if you haven't supplied much evidence.

My advice would be to wait a year and build up the evidence of your relationship in the same way as a couple who have met in Thailand, and have your fiance visit you there once or twice. Then there's a lot less reason to doubt the relationship.

[pantsri]

Just a few observations to help you along the way.

Applicants for a fiance visa have to prove that they have met and intend to get married and live together permanently. They aren't required to prove co-habitation prior to the application. You have to show evidence of the relationship, and I suppose that's difficult if you can't show letters or emails or phone records because you saw each other every day, but if the ECO has actually said you're refused because you can't show you were living together, he's wrong. Do you have photos and stuff like that over a length of time?

If your partner a) has never had public funds and b) has always paid the rent/mortgage on the flat in which you propose to live, it's hard to see how the ECO can allege that you will not be able to support yourself and be accommodated without recourse to public funds.

The real stumbling-block is your previous immigration history. Unless the ECO has invoked Para 320 7(B), imposing a mandatory ban, I don't think the question of an "amnesty" is relevant, and in any case 320 7(B) does not apply to spouse and visa applications. What the ECO is saying is that your previous history is such that it is reasonable to doubt your motives for wanting to return to the UK. Look at it - overstayed the student visa(I bet you did?), application rejected/refused (what's the difference?), hung about for another 3 years, visa refused, illegal entry from Ireland, and then stayed for 3 years. The ECO has to set that against a 7-month relationship, which really isn't that much, particularly if you haven't supplied much evidence.

My advice would be to wait a year and build up the evidence of your relationship in the same way as a couple who have met in Thailand, and have your fiance visit you there once or twice. Then there's a lot less reason to doubt the relationship.

Very helpful info indeed. We have lots of photos took in UK and Thailand together. On bank statement matter is really good answer. He pays monthly direct debit. Last problem, um.. very worry myself. I know but I will have to take a chance to appeal. I don't loose anything, don't you think? but i need to ask them for a second chance.
Thank you,

[Mr Rusty]

I know but I will have to take a chance to appeal. I don't loose anything, don't you think? but i need to ask them for a second chance.
Thank you,

Indeed, and the fact that you are appealing, particularly if your sponsor can attend the hearing, is all evidence that the relationship continues.
But if you have evidence such as photos which was not presented with the original application, why not send it to the Entry Clearance Manager and ask him for a reconsideration, at the same time picking them up on the arguments about co-habitation and support and accommodation?
But remember to get your appeal in within the time limit (28 days?)

I suspect however that you will need time to solve your problem.

[pantsri]

I know but I will have to take a chance to appeal. I don't loose anything, don't you think? but i need to ask them for a second chance.
Thank you,

Indeed, and the fact that you are appealing, particularly if your sponsor can attend the hearing, is all evidence that the relationship continues.
But if you have evidence such as photos which was not presented with the original application, why not send it to the Entry Clearance Manager and ask him for a reconsideration, at the same time picking them up on the arguments about co-habitation and support and accommodation?
But remember to get your appeal in within the time limit (28 days?)

I suspect however that you will need time to solve your problem.

My photos were presented with the application. He assumed that was for visa purposed because the date and month was close to the application date.
When you said "resend it ECM" mean appeal? Time limit is 28 for appeal. How can i pick up on co-habitation? Sorry I am quite stupid on this. For accom issue, i think I will be ok. I will write a break down monthly expenses with the rent direct debit deduction each month on bank statement.
Thanks,

[Mr Rusty]

It's always open to an applicant to ask the local Manager to reconsider a refusal if you can make specific points to rebut the refusal notice or to bring in some fresh evidence which wasn't available to the ECO. Bear in mind that the ECO's decision will have been vetted by the ECM, so unless you have something new or specific to say he's unlikely to change his mind. This is quite separate from lodging your appeal.
If you only presented photos taken a short time before the application the ECO's bound to smell a rat, and if you can't produce verifiable documents to show that the two of you have been an item for 7 months. you're going to have a job making a convincing case in the short term.

[pantsri]

It's always open to an applicant to ask the local Manager to reconsider a refusal if you can make specific points to rebut the refusal notice or to bring in some fresh evidence which wasn't available to the ECO. Bear in mind that the ECO's decision will have been vetted by the ECM, so unless you have something new or specific to say he's unlikely to change his mind. This is quite separate from lodging your appeal.
If you only presented photos taken a short time before the application the ECO's bound to smell a rat, and if you can't produce verifiable documents to show that the two of you have been an item for 7 months. you're going to have a job making a convincing case in the short term.

I lodged my appeal on 29 Dec 2008 already bu paper hearing. In the mean time, I have asked my MP to support my application by sending the embassy an email regards to my appeal. I also sent an email ECM to re consider my appeal as I have got new evidence submitted.

Anything should I cover at this stage?
Thanks

[arts99]

Hi,

Is there a minimum time period that a couple has to prove of knowing each other for the purposes of a fiancé visa application?

For example for unmarried partners the couple has to prove that they have lived together for two years, is there a similar condition for fiancé visa?

Would a couple who have know each other for about 5 months get a fiancé visa application approved, provided they meet all other criteria for example plans to marry/civil partnership, maintenance, suitable accommodation etc?

Thank you

[pantsri]

Hi,

Is there a minimum time period that a couple has to prove of knowing each other for the purposes of a fiancé visa application?

No, you have to prove that you have met and intend to be together permenantly. 6 months minimum time of knowing of you two for me to lead ECO to believe your relationship will come to a good term and time of getting married. Nothing is fixed on the time frame but you have to give a good answer WHY do you want to get married??

For example for unmarried partners the couple has to prove that they have lived together for two years, is there a similar condition for fiancé visa?

Yes, in paper. Can you prove that? ECO do not care what you say until you have paper for your own evidence. 2 years minimum to show them for unmarried partner visa and fiance is not time frame. If you hace email contact. You will have to select the best show of your emails in term of showing your relationship in paper such as in your email mention about "what time are you coming to our home? or see you tonight after work for dinner. Anything can indicate that you have relationship in paper. You can devide 3-4 emails monthly each to show relationship development then circle the sentences to be easy for ECO to notice. Do not need to print all emails. ECo won't read them all. Plus the classic document is same address posts of you two.

Would a couple who have know each other for about 5 months get a fiancé visa application approved, provided they meet all other criteria for example plans to marry/civil partnership, maintenance, suitable accommodation etc?

Eventhough you have all documents they need to apply. It's not garantee that they will give you a visa. If thay are looking for a reason to say no then badluck. But if ECO can see your gaps (mistakes) of your story such as poor bank statement (try do not in debit) or they think that you two wont not intend to be together permenantly, belived me they can say this to you without proving to you a good reason why? Thay can say they feel that this two are not intend to be together. Then what can you say back? To rebut this comment could be your future plans in next 10 years, what business would you plan to do together?

Good luck
Thank you