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See also Chapter 13 Annex 1 Overseas divorces.psychopomp1 wrote:As per the guidance on overseas divorce in Chapter 13 of the Entry Clearance Guidance this divorce is therefore not recognised under UK law. I am therefore not satisfied that the marriage you have contracted is valid.
Yes, it would seem so. Another question is whether it would be an obstacle for your visa if you were married twice. I thought that you could always bring one spouse only to the UK - since your Ex left, that should not be an obstacle now. But maybe I am making it more complicated than necessary.psychopomp1 wrote:After speaking to a few immigration solicitors over the phone, they all came to the conclusion that I need to see a family law solicitor in England and get a decree absolute issued so that UK law recognises my divorce.
There are few members on this forum along with myself who are in the same position as yourself.psychopomp1 wrote:Unfortunately our marriage broke down soon after, we both agreed to a divorce and my ex-wife left the UK. We did NOT register our marriage in the UK, so the divorce took place in Pakistan a few months later and a divorce certificate was issued.
HI, our local pakistani barber has the exact problem. his wifes visa was refused cos they said he wasnt divorced from his prev wife. his appeal was not allowed due to the same reason. his marriage to his second wife was also not recognized cos he married her after becoming a UK citizen and uk citizens are not allowed to have a polygamous marriage anywhere. so he had to get a civil divorce from Uk courts, then he went back to pakistan and then marry again to his second wife so that the marriage is regarded valid in uk law. she was later issued with spouse visa.Frontier Mole wrote:AIT would not take anything other than the actual decree absolute as evidence; they are not in the business of making decisions based on promises.
In any event they can only take evidence that would have been available on the day of the decision, so even with a decree absolute available on the day of the hearing it would still be dismissed.
Accept that this application is dead, get the correct paperwork together and make a fresh application. This is the best and quickest way forward.
Cud it also not depend on how the divorce proceedings were done? Someone just writing on a peice of paper in front of two witnesses that "I divorce my wife" dont have much chance of that divorce being recognized in uk. But if someone goes through courts in pakistan and gets a divorce and according to the law of pakistan that court has jurisdiction over that divorce then I dont see why that divorce wont be accepted in uk. But all such cases I have seen is are like a man posts a statement of divorce to his wife, and sends it to her by post, that wud never be regarded as a divorce in Uk.PaperPusher wrote:Hello
There was a recent big case about just this issue. I am sorry but because it was a family law case I cannot find it now. It was about a couple using Pakistan's divorce laws to end the marriage, even though at least one of them lived in the UK permanently. The end result was the Pakistan divorce was valid. I think you need to a family law specialist, and one that specialises in international family law issues.
The turning point is if it is a valid divorce.
Regards
Had a good look for the case - nothing on usual sites and no mention in the press. POU'ers don't know of it either. Any idea when the case was determined?PaperPusher wrote:Hello
There was a recent big case about just this issue. I am sorry but because it was a family law case I cannot find it now. It was about a couple using Pakistan's divorce laws to end the marriage, even though at least one of them lived in the UK permanently. The end result was the Pakistan divorce was valid. I think you need to a family law specialist, and one that specialises in international family law issues.
The turning point is if it is a valid divorce.
Regards
There are many cases regarding Pakistani divorce being recognised in the UK, just to name few:Frontier Mole wrote:Had a good look for the case - nothing on usual sites and no mention in the press. POU'ers don't know of it either. Any idea when the case was determined?PaperPusher wrote:Hello
There was a recent big case about just this issue. I am sorry but because it was a family law case I cannot find it now. It was about a couple using Pakistan's divorce laws to end the marriage, even though at least one of them lived in the UK permanently. The end result was the Pakistan divorce was valid. I think you need to a family law specialist, and one that specialises in international family law issues.
The turning point is if it is a valid divorce.
Regards
The link seems not to work, just 404 error. Can you please check and post it again.del_piero_3 wrote:There are many cases regarding Pakistani divorce being recognised in the UK, just to name few:Frontier Mole wrote:Had a good look for the case - nothing on usual sites and no mention in the press. POU'ers don't know of it either. Any idea when the case was determined?PaperPusher wrote:Hello
There was a recent big case about just this issue. I am sorry but because it was a family law case I cannot find it now. It was about a couple using Pakistan's divorce laws to end the marriage, even though at least one of them lived in the UK permanently. The end result was the Pakistan divorce was valid. I think you need to a family law specialist, and one that specialises in international family law issues.
The turning point is if it is a valid divorce.
Regards
Quazi v Quazi [1980] AC 744; Chaudhary v Chaudhary [1984] 3 All ER 1017; El Fadl v El Fadl [2000] 1 FCR 685; and Rab (12345); and Mirza Waheed Baig v ECO, Islamabad [2002] UKIAT 04229
I’ve found a link to Mirza Waheed Baig v ECO, Islamabad [2002] UKIAT 04229:
_http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ ... od=boolean
I hope this helps....
Your link still doesnt seem to work, but I managed to find the case on AIT website. You mentioned many pakistani divorced being recognized in uk, but at least the case you have mentioned regarding Mirza Waheed Ahmed, the AIT has not recognized it a valid divorce in UK law. I will quote the important paragraph of the determination.del_piero_3 wrote:Sorry, I've edited my post now.mrlookforward wrote:The link seems not to work, just 404 error. Can you please check and post it again.
Just checked out your link again, and now its working.mrlookforward wrote:Your link still doesnt seem to work, but I managed to find the case on AIT website. You mentioned many pakistani divorced being recognized in uk, but at least the case you have mentioned regarding Mirza Waheed Ahmed, the AIT has not recognized it a valid divorce in UK law. I will quote the important paragraph of the determination.del_piero_3 wrote:Sorry, I've edited my post now.mrlookforward wrote:The link seems not to work, just 404 error. Can you please check and post it again.
" The talaq al-hasan by which the sponsor’s husband purported to divorce her in 1993 is not recognised in the United Kingdom. In English law, the sponsor is still married to Arshad Mahmood. Her purported marriage to the Appellant in the mosque in Manchester on 8th August 1999 is void for lack of the formalities necessary for a marriage in England. Her purported marriage to him at the Manchester Record Office on 25th August 1999 is void for bigamy (or, precisely, polyandry). The Appellant is not the sponsor’s husband and has no claim under the Immigration Rules to be admitted as such.
For the foregoing reasons, the Appellant’s appeal is dismissed."
So can you please point out how this determination be of any help when the appeal has been dismissed.
In the Mirza Waheed Ahmed case document, it will reference other cases which are similiar and were accepted whereas Mirza Waheed Ahmed was rejected - rightly so due to not meeting the criteria set in MFLO 1961 (pakistani Law) and Family Law Act 1986 (UK Law). You will need to read the full document and not just the final summary....mrlookforward wrote:Your link still doesnt seem to work, but I managed to find the case on AIT website. You mentioned many pakistani divorced being recognized in uk, but at least the case you have mentioned regarding Mirza Waheed Ahmed, the AIT has not recognized it a valid divorce in UK law. I will quote the important paragraph of the determination.del_piero_3 wrote:Sorry, I've edited my post now.mrlookforward wrote:The link seems not to work, just 404 error. Can you please check and post it again.
" The talaq al-hasan by which the sponsor’s husband purported to divorce her in 1993 is not recognised in the United Kingdom. In English law, the sponsor is still married to Arshad Mahmood. Her purported marriage to the Appellant in the mosque in Manchester on 8th August 1999 is void for lack of the formalities necessary for a marriage in England. Her purported marriage to him at the Manchester Record Office on 25th August 1999 is void for bigamy (or, precisely, polyandry). The Appellant is not the sponsor’s husband and has no claim under the Immigration Rules to be admitted as such.
For the foregoing reasons, the Appellant’s appeal is dismissed."
So can you please point out how this determination be of any help when the appeal has been dismissed.
Every solicitor I have seen has said the same thing regarding resident status - it has be domiciled/habitually.Frontier Mole wrote:I do not doubt the recognition of PAK divorce; there are many cases that up hold it in terms of family law and administrative law.
It is the circumstances and domiciled / settled status of the respective parties that is important for the purposes of UK immigration law.
I certainly would like to see the case file too. PaperPusher cant you remember any details about it that might help finding the case?Still interested to find the case PaperPusher refers to.
Frontier Mole I have a question for you....sorry only picking on you because you do know your stuff. I have taken the following from this link: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/chapte ... r13annex1/Frontier Mole wrote:I do not doubt the recognition of PAK divorce; there are many cases that up hold it in terms of family law and administrative law.
It is the circumstances and domiciled / settled status of the respective parties that is important for the purposes of UK immigration law.
From the above criteria, assuming that full divorce/talaq was obtained from Pakistan via MFLO 1961/union council. And in the Family Law Act 1986 - overseas divorce obtained by means of proceedings, the criteria has a OR statement between domiciled, habitually resident and Pakistani Citizen, meaning that you only has to meet one of those conditions.The Family Law Act 1986
Recognition of overseas divorces on or after 4 April 1988
Under the Family Law Act 1986 an overseas divorce obtained by means of proceedings is only recognised in the UK if:
- it is valid in the country in which it was obtained;
Only a talaq under the MFLO is considered to have been obtained by proceedings as defined under the UK Acts.
- at the relevant date, either party was either habitually resident or domiciled in that country or was a national of that country.
If a full talaq divorce takes place in Bangladesh or Pakistan it will be recognised in the UK if the procedures laid down under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961 were complied with, and:
the husband or the wife is a Bangladeshi or Pakistani citizen;
or
he or she is habitually resident in Bangladesh or Pakistan;
or
he or she is domiciled in Bangladesh or Pakistan.
No you don't need a certificate of approval if your fiancee has been issued a fiancee visa.psychopomp1 wrote:Hi
My fiancee has now been granted a 6 month visa so after she arrives in UK before getting married do we have to apply for a certificate of approval for marriage or civil partnership (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/while ... documents/) BEFORE we get married? If so how long does it take to get the COA through the post after the application is sent? Can we give notice at our registar's office in Scotland before applying for the COA?
Cheers
Thanks for clarifyingElenaW wrote:No you don't need a certificate of approval if your fiancee has been issued a fiancee visa.psychopomp1 wrote:Hi
My fiancee has now been granted a 6 month visa so after she arrives in UK before getting married do we have to apply for a certificate of approval for marriage or civil partnership (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/while ... documents/) BEFORE we get married? If so how long does it take to get the COA through the post after the application is sent? Can we give notice at our registar's office in Scotland before applying for the COA?
Cheers