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He is NOT married to a Russian girl!shandave2001 wrote:AM00
Wow, though newbie, but I have to say very logical.
I have seen Wanderer's previous posts, there is something dodgy.
I agree with AM00, Wanderer's marriage with a Russian girl seems marriage of concenience.
So an example of a thief shouting thief thief
To clarify,shandave2001 wrote:There is 2nd route under EU law:
Surender Sing approach, as u r in Ireland (Irish Republic), many people use Ireland for this purpose, I hope u should be aware of this. Namely, EEA national needs to stay for 6 months in other EEA country, exercise his treaty right and then come back to UK with non-EEA getting FP and then 5 years residence card in UK.
Hi benifabenifa wrote:Thanks shandave2001 for answering the question. I hadn't though of much of what you have mentioned, with regards to UK national law.
Just on this though:To clarify,shandave2001 wrote:There is 2nd route under EU law:
Surender Sing approach, as u r in Ireland (Irish Republic), many people use Ireland for this purpose, I hope u should be aware of this. Namely, EEA national needs to stay for 6 months in other EEA country, exercise his treaty right and then come back to UK with non-EEA getting FP and then 5 years residence card in UK.
1. EEA national is not required to stay at least six months in the other Member State. There is no minimum time period.
2. The Treaty right exercised in the other Member State must be in an economic capacity.
3. No need for EEA FP under EU law, if in possession of a Residence Card issued in accordance with the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC. No need for EEA FP if entering the UK from Ireland even if the non-EEA family member is not in possession of such RC (Stamp 4EUFam), due to the CTA and lack of border control in UK airports for flights arriving from Ireland.
Still, I accept that the "methods" you have highlighted are certainly viable ones, in which a non-EEA national can "make use of" a UK national.
At least six months in another Member State, before returning to the UK, may be the UK's implemented interpretation of the Singh judgement, but it is not a stipulation laid out in the judgement itself. Even the UK accepts that at least six months in the other Member State is not imperative.shandave2001 wrote:..So if a British citizen wants to use EU rights for this purpose in UK, he needs to stay in another EEA country for at least 6 months (by exercising EU treaty). There is minimum period if Britan citizen wants to come back to UK and claim EU rights for his non-EEA spouse/partner. This rule has been established by the Surender Sing decided by the ECJ.
This Singh judgement makes explicit that the right to return to the EEA national's home State, to be treated as a national of another Member State, is conditional on the EEA national having pursued an economic activity in the other Member State.shandave2001 wrote:Not actually, it could be study, or no economic activity with sufficient funds; alongside with employment or self employment.
Indeed, is it a subject of debate. Hardest part being boarding the aircraft to the UK (convincing airport staff of one's right of entry). However, the UK would not be permitted to refuse entry to an EEA national, and his non-EEA national family members, if the party turn up at the border with their passports and proof of relationship. Visa-required nationals (as per 539/2001/EC), are exempt from the requirement to hold a visa, should they be in possession of a valid Residence Card described in Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. This is why, to answer your original point, the EEA FP is a requirement of the UK EEA regulations which, in the circumstances mentioned, is not compatible with the Directive.shandave2001 wrote:U r right in one way, however, this is something vary country to country as some countries are allowing with EEA residence card but asking non-EEA should be accompanied with EEA national spouse for entry purpose. There is separate thread in this forum where EEA countries which allow non-EEA spouse of EEA national have been mentioned.
As you have said, practically speaking there would be no obstruction in entry to the UK from Ireland, sans EEA FP. The question of whether the stay in the UK would be legal is non-existent. In accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, the right of a non-EEA family member to reside with his EEA family member, is acquired by virtue of his being a person described in Article 2(2) or Article 3(2) of the Directive. This right is not acquired by the issuance of a document by any Member State.shandave2001 wrote:Careful consideration should be paid in regard to travelling from Irish Republic to UK on EEA FP which mean a residence card of 5 years hasn't been issued yet and case is under consideration. I understand because of CTA, practically there wouldn't be any obstruction, but the question is whether it will be a legal stay in the UK.
I agree with the latter part of that quoted, but thankfully this is changing. Slowly.shandave2001 wrote:Definitely it will be problematic to travel on any other EEA country based on EEA FP, there could be problem on return. I am saying that cas on even those who have been issued 5 years EEA spouse residence card, some EEA countries are asking schengen visa for non-EEA (though it is contrary to relevant EU directive).
I'm not married dood.shandave2001 wrote:AM00
Wow, though newbie, but I have to say very logical.
I have seen Wanderer's previous posts, there is something dodgy.
I agree with AM00, Wanderer's marriage with a Russian girl seems marriage of concenience.
So an example of a thief shouting thief thief :o
Interesting argument. The days of mummy-boy men looking to exploit their economic advantage in the Former Soviet Union are long gone, like in Russia etc is generally good - the only pickings now for the socially-challenged are the real bottom of the barrel. These guts are now looking for wherever the poorest girl are, and it's not the FSU now.AM00 wrote:Dear Wanderer
There are increasingly English/British men who seek their brides from Russia, former Russian Block, Thailand and Philippines etc, as they know they will never be average enough... to establish relation with an English/British woman. So is ur marriage/relation is "marriage of convenience"?
I mean a typical example, a disfigured and big belly British man with pretty young Russian girl who is desperate to settle in the UK; will stay in relation until she gets permanent residence or fulfil her pecuniary dreams…).
Obviously these are not only the foreign MEN who can establish a marriage of convenience to stay in the UK. I am concern whether it is for nothing that a pretty Russian girl needs to come all the way from Russia to stay with a man in Leeds. People who know Rusian girls generally, they understand ur case better.
WHETHER MARRIED OR NOTWanderer wrote:AM00 wrote:Dear Wanderer
There are increasingly English/British men who seek their brides from Russia, former Russian Block, Thailand and Philippines etc, as they know they will never be average enough... to establish relation with an English/British woman. So is ur marriage/relation is "marriage of convenience"?
I mean a typical example, a disfigured and big belly British man with pretty young Russian girl who is desperate to settle in the UK; will stay in relation until she gets permanent residence or fulfil her pecuniary dreams…).
Obviously these are not only the foreign MEN who can establish a marriage of convenience to stay in the UK. I am concern whether it is for nothing that a pretty Russian girl needs to come all the way from Russia to stay with a man in Leeds. People who know Rusian girls generally, they understand ur case better.Interesting argument. The days of mummy-boy men looking to exploit their economic advantage in the Former Soviet Union are long gone, like in Russia etc is generally good - the only pickings now for the socially-challenged are the real bottom of the barrel. These guts are now looking for wherever the poorest girl are, and it's not the FSU now.
Anyway, I am (or was) a Russian language student, that's how I met mine, for what it's worth.
Hellobenifa wrote:At least six months in another Member State, before returning to the UK, may be the UK's implemented interpretation of the Singh judgement, but it is not a stipulation laid out in the judgement itself. Even the UK accepts that at least six months in the other Member State is not imperative.shandave2001 wrote:..So if a British citizen wants to use EU rights for this purpose in UK, he needs to stay in another EEA country for at least 6 months (by exercising EU treaty). There is minimum period if Britan citizen wants to come back to UK and claim EU rights for his non-EEA spouse/partner. This rule has been established by the Surender Sing decided by the ECJ.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 70:EN:HTML
This Singh judgement makes explicit that the right to return to the EEA national's home State, to be treated as a national of another Member State, is conditional on the EEA national having pursued an economic activity in the other Member State.shandave2001 wrote:Not actually, it could be study, or no economic activity with sufficient funds; alongside with employment or self employment.
Indeed, is it a subject of debate. Hardest part being boarding the aircraft to the UK (convincing airport staff of one's right of entry). However, the UK would not be permitted to refuse entry to an EEA national, and his non-EEA national family members, if the party turn up at the border with their passports and proof of relationship. Visa-required nationals (as per 539/2001/EC), are exempt from the requirement to hold a visa, should they be in possession of a valid Residence Card described in Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. This is why, to answer your original point, the EEA FP is a requirement of the UK EEA regulations which, in the circumstances mentioned, is not compatible with the Directive.shandave2001 wrote:U r right in one way, however, this is something vary country to country as some countries are allowing with EEA residence card but asking non-EEA should be accompanied with EEA national spouse for entry purpose. There is separate thread in this forum where EEA countries which allow non-EEA spouse of EEA national have been mentioned.
As you have said, practically speaking there would be no obstruction in entry to the UK from Ireland, sans EEA FP. The question of whether the stay in the UK would be legal is non-existent. In accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, the right of a non-EEA family member to reside with his EEA family member, is acquired by virtue of his being a person described in Article 2(2) or Article 3(2) of the Directive. This right is not acquired by the issuance of a document by any Member State.shandave2001 wrote:Careful consideration should be paid in regard to travelling from Irish Republic to UK on EEA FP which mean a residence card of 5 years hasn't been issued yet and case is under consideration. I understand because of CTA, practically there wouldn't be any obstruction, but the question is whether it will be a legal stay in the UK.
I agree with the latter part of that quoted, but thankfully this is changing. Slowly.shandave2001 wrote:Definitely it will be problematic to travel on any other EEA country based on EEA FP, there could be problem on return. I am saying that cas on even those who have been issued 5 years EEA spouse residence card, some EEA countries are asking schengen visa for non-EEA (though it is contrary to relevant EU directive).
inwarsaw wrote:I wish those comments were rubbish, I would love to see them proved rubbish but they are in fact not. As I mentioned, I am living here in Poland with my Polish wife and its been more than a year now.
As for the explanation you asked for ( even though your question is what actually rubbish is called ), I met my wife 6 years ago when I was in Pakistan and Poland was not a member of the EU and I had no idea whatsoever in my mind of moving to europe some day. Instead we have been actually planning to move to somewhere in Mideast after finishing studies. However, my father had different plans for me and being from a strict conservative and traditionalist family, I had no choice but to listen ( your nick says Khan, if you are really a Khan, you should know what I am talking about ) he had dreams of his son getting educated in Englastan, the country of 'Farangi' ( thats what the British were called when they were our rulers ) and I ended up in UK.
After we both finished studies, we were planning to go to Pakistan so she would see my family ( I had already seen her's as I was here a couple of times ) but even though my mum was excited as she already knew about my girl, my father went mad when my mom told him
about the 'white, christian girl from the West' .
We spent the next couple of months figuring out what to do and within this time, my father back home managed to fix my marriage with a girl I had never seen never heard. So the first thing that came to my mind
was to get married with my girl-friend right away so there would be no threat of being forced by my family and so we got married. None of us
was feeling good about it because we had different plans for our Big Day. The next question was where to stay ? As my girl's family
had no such objection on our relationship, Poland seemed the best choice. We wanted to stay in UK originally but although I could get
a job easily, my wife couldn't find the work she wanted and I didn't want her to end up packing in a factory or filling shelves in a supermarket after studying hard for six years to get her degree. When I came to Poland, I was on a visit visa which is not changeable to any work permit
( even though finding a job in here if you don't speak polish is itself second to impossible ) while being in Poland. I could either
go back to Pakistan and apply for work visa from there, get visa to another country and then apply from there or just stay in poland
and apply for work visa based on my wedding and the last option seemed the easiest ( what would you do in such a case ? ) and so
here I am, a Pakistani married to a Polish girl living in Poland !
My father hasn't spoken to me for the last two years since he came to
know about my wife and he has vowed never to see my face again, I had to meet my mother outside when I went to visit her because
I couldn't go home as my father had threatened me never to step in his house and so many other things. No normal person would do
this just to get a stay in europe would he ?
Having said that, its not a crime for a Pakistani to get married with a Polish is it ? The question is not about nationality, race, religion or
ethnicity, the question is about what do you have on your mind.
I have been living in Poland for the last one and a half year and I am still waiting to see a genuine relationship of this sort but I hear every now
and then about some Pakistani, Indian or African using an eastern european girl for immigration purposes and I am not talking about reading in the newspaper, I am talking about what I see around me in real life.
I am not into generalisation, in fact thats the last thing I would do looking at what I have been through simply because of generalisation
but this post is clearly a marriage of convenience. I would love to ask the same questions as Wanderer asked for example !
As for the community thing, I care about my community, my people and the country I come from and this is why I oppose in whatever way possible ( and I wish I could actually stop ) these black sheeps. There are more than 170 million Pakistanis living back home but just because of a few such morons, all of the 170 million become suspects and this is what I can't tolerate !!
you are a star man I never ever thought that people can take benefit of their immigration status like that.. sham on them..shandave2001 wrote:WHETHER MARRIED OR NOTWanderer wrote:AM00 wrote:Dear Wanderer
There are increasingly English/British men who seek their brides from Russia, former Russian Block, Thailand and Philippines etc, as they know they will never be average enough... to establish relation with an English/British woman. So is ur marriage/relation is "marriage of convenience"?
I mean a typical example, a disfigured and big belly British man with pretty young Russian girl who is desperate to settle in the UK; will stay in relation until she gets permanent residence or fulfil her pecuniary dreams…).
Obviously these are not only the foreign MEN who can establish a marriage of convenience to stay in the UK. I am concern whether it is for nothing that a pretty Russian girl needs to come all the way from Russia to stay with a man in Leeds. People who know Rusian girls generally, they understand ur case better.Interesting argument. The days of mummy-boy men looking to exploit their economic advantage in the Former Soviet Union are long gone, like in Russia etc is generally good - the only pickings now for the socially-challenged are the real bottom of the barrel. These guts are now looking for wherever the poorest girl are, and it's not the FSU now.
Anyway, I am (or was) a Russian language student, that's how I met mine, for what it's worth.
As clarified above, the term "marriage of convenience" was used to illustrate the "2 years' contiunue cohabitation akin to marriage" which provides the same rights as under marriage in UK law. In other words, u may call it cohabitation of convenience, but there is no such a legal term.
It doesn't matter whether the non-EEA marriaed or not, the ISSUE is whether she is using or will use such a relationship of convenience to stay in the uk. As in Britain, 2 years' contiunue cohabitation is accepted akin to marriage, there is no need of marriage. In such cases girls (Russian or otherwise) prefer not to marry, cas they know they will split up once the purpose is fulfilled and marry with choice the one they really love and is good match for them.
RUSSIA AND RUSSIAN GIRLS
It is true Russian economy has grown, she is better than it was in nineties (may be thanks to Putin). However, Russia is still not a developed country and some part of Russia are still poor where people struggle to carry out a ordinary life. So there are poor girls too.
However, poor or not, there is large number of girls in Russia who are attracted to UK but visa from Moscow is tough and involve a long and hard task. Even if such a vis a is obtained, it is usually visit or study visa. The forrmer, doesn't allow work/employent in UK at all and expire after 6 months and not extendable, the later (student visa) allow only 20 hours PW of work BUT only as long as studies go or student visa remains valid. Neither of these visas provide potential rights available to permanent residents in the UK.
Wanderer wrote:
"the only pickings now for the socially-challenged are the real bottom of the barrel."
I agree with this. I see and meet these real bottom of the barrels almost regularily. It is usualy a British man in his fifties and and a foreign wife which is usually Russian (former SB), Thai or Philpino girl in her twenties. Some are sponsered on spouse visa and other assisted on their student visas (requirement of accomodation and maintenance etc), and also free residence on arrival in UK, in return, they become partners of men who dislike if one call it relatioship of convenience as they feel insulted. So I understand the Wanderer's problem. Statics show such a route has been used mostly by British men rather than foreigners as British men take advantage of their secured immigration status.
Meet such a couple after couple of years, they would have separated. In 95% cases girls leave men once purpose has fulfilled. When girls get permamnent stay (no more immigration problem), has learnt English language, got a good job and have savings on their own, have few good friends then the objective point for them becomes whether there is any point to live with an old man in Leeds anymore?
It is irrelevant whether one meet while learning Russian language or otherwise.
I was agrred with AM00 that Wanderer's relationship with a Russian girls is one of relationship of convenience. The potential evidence are Wanderer's posts in different threads, in some, he has been asking advice in this regard....). Having met many such couples, I understand Wanderer's problem and why he denies this as a relatioship of convenience. But there is no need to relate this issue with one's personal manhood pride...), it is just reality.