July Applicant - Refused

[nomanlodhi]

Dear All

I am July 28, 2004 applicant from Pakistan (ref no. 0233xx). Yesterday I received my decision letter dated June 01, 2005 informing that it was refused on the following grounds. Before i go into those details, let me introduce my self a bit. I am an ACCA (UK) in December 2000 and ACA (Pak) June 2002 and was under 28 at the time of my application. Work experience includes two separate periods of 4 years and 1 year with the world's largest audit firm (PwC in Pakistan) one year with a multinational financial services firm in Luxembourg and 11 months with a textile company in Pakistan.

I had self assessed 25 points for degree, 5 for age and 50 for experience since I am handling business and operations consultancy projects for the last two years (as of now) which I believed qualified me to achieve specialists' points. The HSMP guys however, allowed me 25 points for ACCA degree and 5 for age and that’s all.

My PwC (a world renowned and reputable audit firm) letters were refused on the ground that the signing person did not mention his name although the letters were on official letter head with all contact details, explained my duties, designation and relevant dates. These letters were signed by the senior partner of the firm in the name of the firm instead of his since it is a world wide practice where audit firms and law firms etc sign reports, opinions and letters in the name of firm and not in the name of any particular partner. In fact in doing so the entire firm becomes liable for whatever is written therein and the firm itself, with all its partners, becomes the point of contact. I am sure that most of you will also be aware that only partners within a firm are allowed to sign in firm's name. Now i plan to go for a review application on the above mentioned grounds citing various online examples where partners have signed reports and opinions in firm's name, requesting them to validate my claims be seeking legal opinion on the authenticity of those letters, verifying my claims of this being a world wide practice by contacting audit and law firms with in UK and also that the guidance notes do not require the signing individual's name as long as a point of contact can be reasonably established (e.g. address, email, fax and phone details from letter head). I am sure that with all those contact details available on those letter heads (which are the same as those mentioned on the global site of PwC and can be checked by any one), they should seek to establish contact with the firm if they need to verify the letters instead of refusing my application based on something that they are not aware of and obviously do not intend to research. Authenticity of those letters should be more important than any individual's name under the signature.

Although my other experience letters were accepted but they were of less than two years, so I didn’t get any point.

I would appreciate if you guys could discuss the points that I plan to raise in my review application and whether I should add anything else as well.

I'll appreciate quick replies since I plan to DHL my review application on this coming Friday

Looking forward and best regards

[iyanu]

Sorry for the refusal!

I think you have a chance if you can do review request. You just need to tell them all that you have mentioned now and thatz it.

You may have to call your case worker also and asked him why he took such decision and from there you got to know is thinking.

I believe you have a chance.

[jazbaati99]

Hiya

Sorry to hear about refusal. I think another point that HO looks into is the earning potential. If you claim specilist points, they assume that you are paid enough to claim salary points as well. I think that did not go in your favour. On your review application just may it is worth while to address this fact as well.

All the best

[nomanlodhi]

Hiya

Sorry to hear about refusal. I think another point that HO looks into is the earning potential. If you claim specilist points, they assume that you are paid enough to claim salary points as well. I think that did not go in your favour. On your review application just may it is worth while to address this fact as well.

All the best

Actually i did claim 25 points for income as well and it was way over what they required. It comprised salary income from firm and income against professional service contract with another company (my ex-employer) I provided tax certificates obtained from my employer and contractor. But the case worker mistook those two different certificates for two evidences of one income and calculated my income on the basis of the one which was lower than 5,000 pounds.

Even if i point out that mistake, i might still be refused any points in that category since i did not provide two evidences each for those incomes. Therfore, i plan not to contest that part of the decision. I dont want to look like arguing for the sake of arguement.

Now, why i provided only one evidence, well! my tax period did not reconcile with the last 12 months prior to the application date and we are not given any monthly payslips. Also, i dont feel that i even need that or any points for specialist role. i already have 30 points and if i get 35 for 4 years experience (since i have more than that), that would be more than enough for me.

what do you guys say??? Is there any one here with similar kind of problem (concerning the experience letters) or does any one know of any legal references that i can make alongside what i said in my earlier mail

Best Regards

[Kotiara]

I used to work for a Big 4 company as well. I got a letter from HR Manager of the office where I was worked. Now waiting for results. Can't you do the same thing? I mean, there is a difference between audit reports and professional references. It just can't be that every letter ever issued by PwC hasnt been signed by a specific person.

[nomanlodhi]

I used to work for a Big 4 company as well. I got a letter from HR Manager of the office where I was worked. Now waiting for results. Can't you do the same thing? I mean, there is a difference between audit reports and professional references. It just can't be that every letter ever issued by PwC hasnt been signed by a specific person.

I agree, i could have done that too and probably it is done more often than not. Unfortunately i can not do that now while i am going for a review (since it would count as additional info). Still i beleive one can't challenge the authenticity of any letter signed in the style mine are since this is a international convention (are you aware of any legal references like something from the partnership act or so that may help) and a practice that follows world wide. This is the best i can do for now. Otherwise i could have asked my senior manager or accountant to sign the letter for me.
Best Regards

[rao166]

Noman my case is somewhat similar to you in income case.

I am working full time in a comapny and a consultant for another company. Together my income will cross the limit. I am just waiting of 3oth june. after that i ll be able to get tax return certificate and i ll apply INSHAALLAH.

What do u think , is this skeptical in the eyes of case worker or not. provide that my income from consultancy which is a part time is more than from regular. Secondly the consultancy fee i have a contrat to get it after a year and i just got it 2 months ago. considering all these in mind what all of u think about my income points.

[nomanlodhi]

Noman my case is somewhat similar to you in income case.

I am working full time in a comapny and a consultant for another company. Together my income will cross the limit. I am just waiting of 3oth june. after that i ll be able to get tax return certificate and i ll apply INSHAALLAH.

What do u think , is this skeptical in the eyes of case worker or not. provide that my income from consultancy which is a part time is more than from regular. Secondly the consultancy fee i have a contrat to get it after a year and i just got it 2 months ago. considering all these in mind what all of u think about my income points.

Rao!
If i have understool it correctly, what you need to do is obtain an income statement from your full time employer (showing income A) and one from your part time employer (showing income B). Additionally you will need to obtain your total income return (showing incomes A+B). Further, it is best if you have the part time consultancy contract to support incoem from your part time activities. I hope this helps

Finally, i dont think that HSMP guys should have any problem with part-time job's income as long as it is generated through use of your professional services on a part time basis. Every body correct me if i am wrong and do keep suggesting me on my issues as well.
Best Regards

[dhavaluk]

Hiya

Sorry to hear about refusal. I think another point that HO looks into is the earning potential. If you claim specilist points, they assume that you are paid enough to claim salary points as well. I think that did not go in your favour. On your review application just may it is worth while to address this fact as well.

All the best

Hi Dear,

I don not agree with this. This issue was raised with someone else in another thread also, but that time i was not sure. I had claimed points for Senior level/specialist level work experience, which i have been awarded too and just yesterday i got my approval letter. Now, if u look at my salary, i am earning INR 10,000 pm, which is almost GBP 125 pm. Now obviously they won't consider thsi as a higher income according to you and others, but still i have got it.

So, salary is not at all an issue, unless untill u claim points for income, u need not to provide them evidences for the same, and they have never linked experience with earnings in the form or any of their guidelines or FAQs.

[simar]

Hi dhavaluk,

Can you pls tell in which profession are you in. Also please let us know as how much are expecting to earn in first year in UK.
What figure did you fill in the hsmp form.

regards
simar

[Junior0300]

If you send an email to HSMP team, regarding any query, using 5 different email addresses. You are likely to get 6 different answers. There is no hard and fast rule they are following.

All depends on the case worker or you can say YOUR LUCK...

Instead of messing with them why don't you apply again a fresh application, obviously you can get your reference letter signed by anybody in your company.

[nomanlodhi]

If you send an email to HSMP team, regarding any query, using 5 different email addresses. You are likely to get 6 different answers. There is no hard and fast rule they are following.

All depends on the case worker or you can say YOUR LUCK...

Instead of messing with them why don't you apply again a fresh application, obviously you can get your reference letter signed by anybody in your company.

I will, if my review application is refused as well. I dont think it would take more than a couple of months.

Besides, as you said yourself, it all depends on the case worker i.e. your luck!!!!!!!

Best regards

[nomanlodhi]

Dear All

I am submitting my review application today. As i understand the process, i do not need to enclose any of the supporting documents i had sent initially with HSMP application. All i need to send is the review application. I can not even add a document to substantiate the originally sent evidences (i mean i can't get my experience letters verified by the signing individual and attach with the review application). Right????

I have based my review application (experience part) arround the following arguments:

1. My work experience is validated and acknowledged by ACCA-UK and local CA Institute, hence the awarding of memberships (I have provided extracts of membership rules from the two bodies)
2. Partners in a firm may sign in firm's name, which is a generally accepted business practice world wide. I have provided links to various UK reports and opinions.
3. Paragraph 7.2.4 of gudance notes does not require the signing individual to name himself. The more important thing is the authenticity or letters and identification of employer and contact which can be established since it is on firm's letterhead (the same styled letter heads are used by all member firms world wide)
4. I was employed by the firm and not any particular individual and served different partners at different times, therfore, it is only logical that my experience letters be signed in the name of my firm (the employer) while all the contact details of employer are available on the official letter heads
5. Finally i have explained a bit that why my current (over one year) experience should be classified as specialist role.

How do you guys rate my arguments and my chances of a successful review. I will appreciate quick (and losts of responses.
Best Regards

[Joseph]

nomanlodhi
I think you need to comply with their request, if you want to get approval.

1. Get a clarifying letter from the partner in your firm saying that he signed the letter in the company's name and that he can be reached by telephone/fax email etc. in the body of the letter, not just the letterhead. He should sign the letter in his name with his letterhead. I don't agree and don't think HSMP would agree that Partners cannot sign their own name. If the Partner doesn't want to sign this, you could get the same type of letter from the personnel manager . HSMP want the name of a specific person in authority they can call if needed. If they don't get this they may become suspicious.

2. I don't agree with your approach below:

Actually i did claim 25 points for income as well and it was way over what they required. It comprised salary income from firm and income against professional service contract with another company (my ex-employer) I provided tax certificates obtained from my employer and contractor. But the case worker mistook those two different certificates for two evidences of one income and calculated my income on the basis of the one which was lower than 5,000 pounds.

Even if i point out that mistake, i might still be refused any points in that category since i did not provide two evidences each for those incomes. Therfore, i plan not to contest that part of the decision. I dont want to look like arguing for the sake of arguement.

Now, why i provided only one evidence, well! my tax period did not reconcile with the last 12 months prior to the application date and we are not given any monthly payslips. Also, i dont feel that i even need that or any points for specialist role. i already have 30 points and if i get 35 for 4 years experience (since i have more than that), that would be more than enough for me.

You need to go for all possible points including the 25 income points. Besides, if you back off on this point now, you may lose credibility.

My advice is: when they ask for clarifying evidence, just try to provide the missing evidence instead of arguing why you don't need to provide it. It's your life that's on the line, not theirs.

Joseph

[dhavaluk]

Hi dhavaluk,

Can you pls tell in which profession are you in. Also please let us know as how much are expecting to earn in first year in UK.
What figure did you fill in the hsmp form.

regards
simar

Hi SImar,

I am from a Science Field (post graduate of Botany adn about to finish my Ph.D.) from India. I had entered it as "At least 25,000 GBP per anum" in that field and had attached some of the job advertisement requiring my qualifaction for the posts and the applications i had sent in response of that.
But i think, its merely on the poitns u have claimed, thsi information according to me would be just to keep you busy in thinknmign about if you get rejection any how.

[nomanlodhi]

Dear Joseph

Actually i would love to provide them with a named and signed letter from the firm's partner and my tax return for the year 2004, as you have suggested in your post. The point is; can i do this now since i am going for a review? I am under the impression that i can not. Please correct me if i am wrong.

On the other hand, i would surely provide them with those documents, if asked, or if (when) i go for fresh application.

Also please tell me whether i need to send any of the orginal evidences with this review application. I am under the impression that i do not.

Regards

[Joseph]

I assume you got the original documents back. Yes I would send them back the original documents that they questioned along with the new original supporting documents. They probably have already made copies, but I wouldn't assume this. Explain in a cover letter (which refers to their refusal letter) that you are providing additional documentation that supports your claim.
Explain how (with the documentation) your income meets their requirement for the 25 points.
The key is to provide them with everything they need (documents) to quickly and easily make a decision in your favour. If their refusal was simply based on not having all the required documentation, it can be easily reversed. If you need more time to get letters or other support for your income, take the time. It's worth making sure that you send them everything they need.
Joseph

[iyanu]

Hi Nomanlodhi,

I think you need a fresh review as you have made so many mistakes in your first application. HO will not take any documents (though in exceptional cases, which I think yours does not fit into) when doing a request review.

I will suggest you repackage your evidences especially now that you know a lot of things and then do a fresh application.

But if you want to give your review (make sure it is only your request letter) a trial then go ahead afterall it does not cost you anything.

Got it!

Good Luck.

[Joseph]

I disagree with the last post. A fresh application is not needed or desirable. Specifically address their concerns in their rejection letter and you should be fine.
Joseph

[nomanlodhi]

Hi Nomanlodhi,

I think you need a fresh review as you have made so many mistakes in your first application. HO will not take any documents (though in exceptional cases, which I think yours does not fit into) when doing a request review.

I will suggest you repackage your evidences especially now that you know a lot of things and then do a fresh application.

But if you want to give your review (make sure it is only your request letter) a trial then go ahead afterall it does not cost you anything.

Got it!

Good Luck.

Yeah!! i would want to go for a free review first and if rejected then i will proceed with a fresh application. Reason being, i am over 28 now, need to get ammended and updated experience letters as well as wait for the tax return. in the meantime, i hope for a positive result of this review application. and i strongly feel that i must be given 35 marks for experience since the letters are verifiable and signed in agreement with the normally accepted business practices world wide. you know such documents are acceptable legal evidence in court proceedings as also evident from the ENRON case in the US and i have provided extracts and links to documents signed in such style that were used as evidences in that case. All in all i feel that on legal and technical grounds i have a strong case and should be approved (although the more relevant thing is what the hsmp guys think )

Thanks for your reply though and all others who have contributed to my issues.

regards

[dhavaluk]

hi noman,

i agree with you, no need to go for fresh application so far as u have storng points to rgue the decision. And the draft which u have prepared, seems strongest with the arguments, so go ahead with a free review and hope for the best.

[nomanlodhi]

I disagree with the last post. A fresh application is not needed or desirable. Specifically address their concerns in their rejection letter and you should be fine.
Joseph

Joseph! i agree with you except that i can only argue against their assessment and explain my point of view by writing a letter to them without attaching any evidences. Hence, i am not even attaching the printouts of documents i mentioned in my above post. i have only printed extracts from those reports and clauses from various UK laws / bye laws and provided them with links. i have also provided the names and contact details of all the partners but as part of the review application and not as a separate attachment.

I only plan to re-submit the documents i had originally submitted and thats all.

best regards

[Joseph]

nomanlodhi

Since the rules have changed, not allowing you to send additional documentation without paying the fee, it appears unlikely that your application will be approved. But it probably doesn't hurt to try. You can always pay the fee if required right?

In any case, good luck with your appeal and let us know how it goes.

Joseph

[rao166]

Joseph , the point is if noman supply additional docs, he shud have to pay extra 315 pounds but a review without additional docs costs nothing.

But noman as u r now over 28, i suggest u send a review without additional docs but still they dont accept then send additional docs(with fee) for your income to claim that points as u ll still be considered below 28. But if u make a fresh application u ll b considered over 28.

And do claim ur income points as joseph suggested even if u knoe they ll reject .

[Joseph]

rao166 / nomanlodhi
You're right. The rules have tightened up with HSMP and I need to study them more . I have edited my last post accordingly. Thanks for the correction.
Joseph