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[berlingoodman]

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[PaperPusher]

I am an American musician who ,last fall, was served a 10 year ban from entering the UK due to apparently using deception to enter the UK and perform without a work visa.

I've recently discovered that due to the new Tier points based system, I could apply, with appropriate sponsorship, for leave in the UK as a working entertainer (The official category is Temporary Workers-Creative and Sporting). Is it possible this new development could help me if I again applied for entry in the UK?

I am assuming it probably wouldn't make a difference and that the ban would stand...however, I suppose the only way to find out for sure would be to simply re-apply for leave of entrance and hope for the best.

I wanted to ask all of you out there for any thoughts you might have, if you could be so kind.

Thank you very much indeed.

Hello again berlingoodman

To clarify, I thought from your previous posts that you actually did use deception and work in the UK in the past on visit visas, and also try to do the same thing again recently, and that this is not a wild accusation from nowhere from UKBA.

By deception I mean - you got to the port, said you were here for a visit, when you were here to do some work, and got the 6 months stamp that says no work, then you did some work, and you did this more than once. This is deception as far as UKBA and past case law is concerned.

I thought that you were getting representation from Jennifer Lambe? What happened to that?

The only way you will find out if your application will get approved is to apply.

I don't hold much hope for your chances, you may get the certificate of sponsorship, but getting to the UK is another matter entirely. It seems to be me you were caught fair & square and the ban meets the rules. You may not think it is fair, but it is the law.

My thoughts.

Regards

PP

[Frontier Mole]

Totally agree with PaperPusher.

Given your immigration history I would hold out very little hope of getting the entry visa.

Handing out the Tier 5 COS from the promoter is a ten a penny thing, it in no way influences the entry clearance decision by the ECO. You still have to qualify for entry in your own right PLUS have the COS to be able to work.

[berlingoodman]

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[PaperPusher]

I cannot see how you are planning to get round the 10 year ban for deception, perhaps you can enlighten us!

The COS is given to people by the employer and is probably easy/easier to achieve, you still have to get to the UK.

[Frontier Mole]

Very good of Ms Lambe to mention tier 5 - some of us got there a long time ago - that would be 2nd November 2008 to be precise

.......As for future entry, no matter what method you try to employ the result will end up the same - a refusal. Work permits finish on 27th November, a promoter will be able to sponsor you under tier 5 of the new points based system but when you apply for the entry visa it will get turned down because of the mandatory ban.........

The above was taken from your previous posts.

[berlingoodman]

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[Frontier Mole]

Sorry if you do not like my tone. Immigration abusers are not my cup of tea either.

To enter the UK you need to overcome your mandatory 10 year ban for previously employing deception to enter the UK.

The question you pose is not going to get a different answer a few months down the line, that is what I was getting at.

Your circumstances will remain the same no matter how you approach the task of trying to enter the UK to work, study or visit. The only way that the circumstances will alter will be through some fairly major changes.
This far from exhaustive list includes, obtaining an EEA passport, marring a UK or EEA national or finding out your real father was British born....

You seem to think that your deception should be overlooked or mitigated as you are not from "one of those other countries" that need a visa to enter the UK. You also seem to want to trivialise the fact that you worked in the UK without the appropriate permission and that it is not really such a big deal.
I think at some point you might realise that it was a big deal and your country of origin gives you no more rights than other non EEA nationals. Once you accept that your own actions placed you in the position you find yourself you might more readily understand that your pursuit of entry to the UK is somewhat futile.

I wish you luck with your career, at least if your success has a marketable output it will be readily available to purchase in the UK.

[PaperPusher]

Berlingoodman

The only way you are going to find out if you will get to come to the UK is to apply.

Please let us know how you get on, there will be other people in your situation too.

[The Station Agent]

To be fair, Frontier - there is a GREAT deal of ignorance and confusion in the immigration system and by those who need to use it about work for entertainers. We have had work permit holding entertainers landed as visitors more times than I could possibly mention. We have had ECOs say bands can come here without work permits as long as they're not making a profit, we've had UKBA muddying the waters by not making those exempt from work permits clear enough, I could go on.

If Berlingoodman was handled by a booking agent or such like then THEY are more to blame than him if he did not have a work permit (if one was needed of course).

We recently heard about a US band with a Filipino member (US green card holder). Their UK booking agency got them work permits for a tour last year but didn't know he needed an entry visa. He was technically refused entry but allowed to do the short tour.

When he went to apply for a visa last week (with a Tier 5 CoS) he ticked the No box about Have you ever been denied entry. The ECO took this as deception and refsued the visa without appeal. But to his mind he WAS allowed in last time. When it comes to entertainers (who are after all self-employed and not employees of UK companies) it's not as cut and dried as you make out.

[berlingoodman]

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[berlingoodman]

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[The Station Agent]

Yup - Wolrdbridge - what a great example of outsourcing that is. They told 2 US bands (that I know of - there are probably loads more) that they didn't need work permits. Both bands got stopped at Immigration.

In one of the cases we were alterted early enough. We argued that the British government (via Worldbridge) had giben them bad advice. They gave the band temporary admission for 3 days and we got them work permits (this was before PBS).

But instances like that give lie to UKBA's assertion that ALL entertainers who come here without a permit are deliberately breaking the law. Many have been badly advised or confused by guidelines which contain double-negatives etc. Their employers are obliged to obtain the necessary approval, not them. And yet the UK booking agents etc will say they are not employing the bands, which is usually true.

It's a minefield and Berlingoodman is not the first to caught out. But he is the first we know of who has been punished so harshly. Even Snoop Dogg can come back................

In fact a Belgian booking agency were talking about maybe talking their case to the European court because they were prevented from obtaining work permits / CoS for their non-EU bands to tour here by the fact they are not a UK company. They are complaining that the bands are self-employed and that the UK immigration system does not allow them to play concerts in the UK without a UK booking agent, thus doing him out of business.

I tend to agree, but it's not in my business interest to pursue that line of thought.

[PaperPusher]

The Station Agent

I have had the benefit of reading berlingoodman's posts on another forum & it isn't quite the hard luck story that it first seems.

*berlingoodman did it more than once before being caught
*berlingoodman was paid for gigs, not doing unpaid promo work/interviews
*berlingoodman misled the IO about the purpose of the visit, probably on past visits too
*If you mislead or lie to the IO about the purpose of your visit that is deception, plus berlingoodman had got in to the UK before on visit visas to work
*Even when challenged berlingoodman was not forthright & lied, and berlingoodman got caught out in those lies

I am interested how this will all pan out because the mandatory bans are new and not that many appeals seem to have worked their way through yet.

[berlingoodman]

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[PaperPusher]

I mentioned the other forum:

9)Your UK contact must have given an account that contradicted yours with many discrepancies

Yes. She told them about the gigs I didn't mention and said I was working only for expenses.