Naturalisation of Spouses to Irish Citizens

[Nehro]

Hi All
I am a new member of this excellent informative forum. I just thought of opening a new thread mainly concerned with the issue of naturalisation of spouses of Irish citizens and the amount of hassle they get from the incompetent INIS. I will start with my story here. I may be in a better position then many others in the same boat regarding the waiting time, but I still can not help feeling bitter at the treatment of spouses of the irish. I submitted my application in May 2007 and was returned to me because we simply knocked on the door of the first solicitor we found in town thinking that we can just sign the application and the affidavit in his office (we thought it was simple and straight forward). The application was returned as the solicitor had to know both of us PERSONNALLY for several years. I was lucky as we knew a relative of my wife who finished that issue and I resubmitted the application again in late June 2007. Although that caused us a bit of hassle but we thought that requirement from INIS was actually good may be to varify things, but my question to INIS is: what if the couple have never met or known a solicitor before - sounds unusual? believe me, many people do not have such an honour. Myself - although being a highly skilled professional, and my Irish wife (used to work in admin), never dealt with lawyers until recently when we applied for a mortgage . Anyway, I received 2 aknowledgments (as is usually the case) with a notice that my application will NOT be processed within 30 months (as everybody else applied around the same period). I was not in hurry. But then I started hearing strange things; people who have applied well after me have received approvals and so on. My main question is if it is really chronological and fair process for everyone, why do they pick some files from the pile and deal with them as a priority? Because of my profession, I had to go back and forth to the UK and acquiring an EU passport will make it much easier for me to travel. Besides, If I am living in this country (for 8 years now), married and had children in this country, working in a very skilled area, paying taxes, and obeying law, why they always insist it is a privilage not a right to have the citizenship? I think it is actually a RIGHT for spouses who are skilled and contribute hugely to this country by covering important service. By insisting on the "privilage" attitude the Irish authorities are actually disrespecting their own people through treating their non Irish spouses as second class people "privilaged" by getting the Irish citizenship. In fact, the real privilage I find is in my own nationality and identity, but I want the Irish passport to ease travel and not to stop in Dublin Airport Non EU queue (with the officer looking at you suspeciously !), while watching asylum (or economic) made-citizens walking in front of you in EU side with no wait and everything is nice and smooth (While I am paying their social benefits !). It could be a strange logic but if you think in this carefully you will find this true and happening everyday with other people. I want here to share with other people their experience. Is there any legal challenge at EU level that we can pursue to bring the waiting time down to 6 months as a maximum? Good luck everybody !

[Fionn]

I'm in a very similar situation here and it's causing me a lot of hassle to travel to the UK and Europe at the moment. I even had to turn down a promotion recently, which would have meant that I would have to travel worldwide..I would have spent most time queuing at embassies if I did accept.
As you said, it's very unfair to see refugees faster naturalised than spouses of Irish citizens., but you can't really do anything about that. It's only done because there is certain pressure from the EU to do so..If it was up to Ireland, none of these refugees would be actually naturalised...
...

[Nehro]

I'm in a very similar situation here and it's causing me a lot of hassle to travel to the UK and Europe at the moment. I even had to turn down a promotion recently, which would have meant that I would have to travel worldwide..I would have spent most time queuing at embassies if I did accept.
As you said, it's very unfair to see refugees faster naturalised than spouses of Irish citizens., but you can't really do anything about that. It's only done because there is certain pressure from the EU to do so..If it was up to Ireland, none of these refugees would be actually naturalised...
...

That is correct. It makes you feel that you are actually in a big prison, or that you should stay quite and be happy that you are allowed into the Irish paradise.

[yankeegirl]

Hang on a sec...the solicitor has to have known both the applicant and the spouse personally?! Well, crap, guess I may have to hold off applying, unless I can magically befriend one in the next year. I've never had any reason to come in contact with any solicitors. AAARRRGGGHHHHHHH

[Nehro]

Hang on a sec...the solicitor has to have known both the applicant and the spouse personally?! Well, crap, guess I may have to hold off applying, unless I can magically befriend one in the next year. I've never had any reason to come in contact with any solicitors. AAARRRGGGHHHHHHH

That's right. you need to sign the marriage affidavit in front of a solicitor who knows either of you personally and not by ID. I guess they don't make these thing clear and the applicants end up wasting time. Anyway, you now know, and you or your partner should start looking for one. If you have a mortgage or buying a house, your own solicitor should be enough.

[scrudu]

Regarding the Solicitor personally knowing you, I'm not sure that this is still currently the case. The current Citizenship application form has a place where a solicitor must witness your signature, but they have the option of choosing ticking any of the following options, which do allow for if they do not personally know you:

• 1) who is personally known to me
  2) who was identified to me by XXX who is personally known to me
  3) whose identity has been established to me before the taking of this Declaration by the production to me of
  passport no. <<PASSPORT NUMBER>> issued on <<DATE OF ISSUE>> by the authorities of <<ISSUING STATE>>, , [which is an authority recognised by the Irish Government]
  4) production of Aliens Passport no.
  5) production of Refugee Travel Document
  5) production of Travel Document

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%208 ... 2009b).pdf

[Nehro]

Regarding the Solicitor personally knowing you, I'm not sure that this is still currently the case. The current Citizenship application form has a place where a solicitor must witness your signature, but they have the option of choosing ticking any of the following options, which do allow for if they do not personally know you:

• 1) who is personally known to me
  2) who was identified to me by XXX who is personally known to me
  3) whose identity has been established to me before the taking of this Declaration by the production to me of
  passport no. <<PASSPORT NUMBER>> issued on <<DATE OF ISSUE>> by the authorities of <<ISSUING STATE>>, , [which is an authority recognised by the Irish Government]
  4) production of Aliens Passport no.
  5) production of Refugee Travel Document
  5) production of Travel Document

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%208 ... 2009b).pdf

After submitting my 1st application, I was phoned by a citizenship officer who explained to me that they would only accept the first 2 options, and when the application was returned for amendment of the last page (the affidavit), there was an enclosed document with a ticked box on the particular point of them not accepting IDs or passports as a form of identification to the witnessing solicitor. The witnessing solicitor should have known the couple or one of them personally and then put down their passport details along with his/her own signature. But again, as you have said, their roles might have been changed since. However, my advice to any new applicant is to ring INIS to get upto date information just before submission of their application.

[scrudu]

If they still insist that you "personally" know the Solicitor, then I agree it is pretty crap.

If they at least allow the 2nd option, i.e. someone who knows you will vouch for you to a solicitor they know, then you should be ok. Most longer term residents would have had contact with a solicitor and usually they stay with the same solicitor for life (of course cases my vary). So anyone who owns a house, or has a will would be able to help you out.

Far from ideal I agree, but I guess they are trying to get a personal declaration about who you are as documents can be counterfeit, and they can't expect a solicitor to know how to verify the authenticity of such documents.

[Nehro]

If they still insist that you "personally" know the Solicitor, then I agree it is pretty crap.

If they at least allow the 2nd option, i.e. someone who knows you will vouch for you to a solicitor they know, then you should be ok. Most longer term residents would have had contact with a solicitor and usually they stay with the same solicitor for life (of course cases my vary). So anyone who owns a house, or has a will would be able to help you out.

Far from ideal I agree, but I guess they are trying to get a personal declaration about who you are as documents can be counterfeit, and they can't expect a solicitor to know how to verify the authenticity of such documents.

That is fine and acceptable (i.e. to confirm applicant's identity by such measures) but it should be explained clearly to the applicants BEFORE submitting their applications to avoid delays. This is another aspect of INIS inefficiency (and this includes their useless website). The other issue I am wondering about is how do they claim dealing with different categories separately (asylum seakers, minors, and spouses) from the general naturalisation queue, if our applications would take 2 yrs+ to process. I am quite puzzled.. Sure these 3 groups toghether are only a minority compared to other groups (such as working tax - paying applicants)

[Lost Soul]

while watching asylum (or economic) made-citizens walking in front of you in EU side with no wait and everything is nice and smooth (While I am paying their social benefits !).

I object to this facial statement. I am probably paying the social benefits of several Irish citizens and am also a senior professional. I had to wait 35 months for my naturalisation. Why doesn't this guy just go home?

[Lost Soul]

The other issue I am wondering about is how do they claim dealing with different categories separately (asylum seakers, minors, and spouses) from the general naturalisation queue, if our applications would take 2 yrs+ to process. I am quite buzzled.. Sure these 3 groups toghether are only a minority compared to other groups (such as working tax - paying applicants)

This guy's attitude really sucks. You'd think he was the only non-Irish taxpayer. No wonder he's "buzzled"

[Nehro]

Lost Soul
Thank you for your notes. I am far from being dearly beloved. I only mentioned the EU/Non EU queues at Dublin airport just to make a point which is the amount of hassle and difficulties we face as spouses being treated as "alients" rather than part of the Irish families and people. Thus there is no point in mentioning the usual dearly beloved remark written by yourself "go home". I am (and many others in same situation) here to stay. We are now members of this community, have own families and children here, and contribute to this country each in his / her own specialist field of expertise.
Good luck !

[Nehro]

Hi everyone
Any more posts / suggestions on this topic? Is there any way to put pressure on doj to facilitate faster processing of spouses applications? Will signing a petition be helpful in this case?
Another suggestion: I know it may be difficult from practical point of view but I am just wondering: is establishing a Pressure Group made of spouses of the Irish be helpful for our cases or not? Just a thought.. If we assume that the answer is "Yes" how can we go about it?

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions..

[scrudu]

Just thought I'd post an update on this one. I called the INIS Citizenship phoneline today (20 min wait to get through despite calling at exactly 10:00 just as the phonelines opened) I asked if you had to personally know the solicitor who was certifying your application form. The woman said that "no, that could be difficult for some applicants. As long as you bring your ID, it would be ok for them to verify from that". It remains to be seen when we actually submit my husband's application whether this is the case or not. We do not personally know a solicitor so will be hoping that Identification suffices.

[pahadia]

Solicitor will know you personally for tener Upto now I have got solicitor signature 5 times ( 2 for naturalization application, 2 for birth affidavit and 1 for marriage affidavit). This is done by different solicitors and non was known to me. They carged me €10 each time as their legal fee.All INIS cared was that yours & solicitors signature dates are same.

If they still insist that you "personally" know the Solicitor, then I agree it is pretty crap.

If they at least allow the 2nd option, i.e. someone who knows you will vouch for you to a solicitor they know, then you should be ok. Most longer term residents would have had contact with a solicitor and usually they stay with the same solicitor for life (of course cases my vary). So anyone who owns a house, or has a will would be able to help you out.

Far from ideal I agree, but I guess they are trying to get a personal declaration about who you are as documents can be counterfeit, and they can't expect a solicitor to know how to verify the authenticity of such documents.

That is fine and acceptable (i.e. to confirm applicant's identity by such measures) but it should be explained clearly to the applicants BEFORE submitting their applications to avoid delays. This is another aspect of INIS inefficiency (and this includes their useless website). The other issue I am wondering about is how do they claim dealing with different categories separately (asylum seakers, minors, and spouses) from the general naturalisation queue, if our applications would take 2 yrs+ to process. I am quite puzzled.. Sure these 3 groups toghether are only a minority compared to other groups (such as working tax - paying applicants)

[acme4242]

A very good analysis by Alan Shatter

http://www.gallaghershatter.ie/law_docs ... 202004.pdf

The complex residential requirements applied to post-nuptial citizenship by the
2001Act as now being amended and which will become effective on the 30th
November 2005 will be open to challenge as being discriminatory as between foreign
spouses of public servants and foreign spouses of others in violation of both the
Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights. The law will also be
open to challenge pursuant to European Union laws and rules which envisage the free
movement of persons within EU member states and which do not countenance any
penalties being imposed by any member state on an EU national who obtains
employment or establishes a business in another member State. In this context, the
validity of a law which denies to the foreign spouse of such Irish citizen an
entitlement to seek post-nuptial citizenship or which poses a threat of revocation of
post-nuptial citizenship after it has been obtained is clearly questionable.

Just to let you know who is to blame and responsible for all this,
it was John O'Donoghue Fainna Fail, who took away post-nupital
citizenship, and it was Micheal McDowell who took away the rights
of the family concerning automatic rights of residence.
O'Donoghue is still a TD, while McDowell got kicked out.

[Nehro]

Just thought I'd post an update on this one. I called the INIS Citizenship phoneline today (20 min wait to get through despite calling at exactly 10:00 just as the phonelines opened) I asked if you had to personally know the solicitor who was certifying your application form. The woman said that "no, that could be difficult for some applicants. As long as you bring your ID, it would be ok for them to verify from that". It remains to be seen when we actually submit my husband's application whether this is the case or not. We do not personally know a solicitor so will be hoping that Identification suffices.

Hi Scrudu
Is your husbend applying based on his marriage to you or based on 5 yrs residency?
The soilicitor does not need to know the applicant personally when signing the naturalisation application Form if it is based on 5 yrs residency. However, for signing the marriage affidavit (for those applying for citizenship based on marriage), the witnessing solicitor should personally know at least one person of the attending couple.

[scrudu]

Hi Nehro,

He is applying on the basis of Marriage to an Irish Citizen. What you said contradicts what the Operator on the Citizenship phoneline said (i.e. ID would suffice). That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the information she gave me was incorrect. We've had personal experience of repeated misinformation from DoJ and INIS.

Problem is that we don't know a Solicitor/Commissioner/Notary personally so we're searching around through family connections to see if we can at least get one who knows a family member (my parents probably). This is a pretty crazy rule as what can you do if you don't know a Solicitor/Commissioner/Notary personally! Try to get to know one, make friends and then whip out the form to sign in time to submit your Citizenship App?!!! If they even allowed Gardai/Doctors it would be more feasible.

[ChIrl]

Does anyone know timelines for processing applications of spouses of Irish citizens including naturalised irish citizens? Are these applications processed in a different queue and processed faster than other applications?

My wife is eligible thru myself as a naturalised citizen and also on 5 years residency. Wondering how do i apply her application ?

Regards

[scrudu]

According to INIS there is no difference. All applications for citizenship are processed in chronological order. They do say that some cases may take longer than others. From the looks of it App's on the basis of Refugees/Marriage to Irish spouse are quicker than other apps (time varies).

If you go http://www.editgrid.com/user/scrudu/citizenship_apps to and filter on Column C (Grounds of Application), setting the filter to "Marriage to Irish Spouse" you'll see details for 7 Applicants. Only two applicants has been granted so far (15 & 22 mths duration). From the timelines in comparison to other applicaitons that have been granted (set filter on Column M, Grant Decision) it does seem shorter as the average seems to be about 31 mths for WP/WA holders (5 year residency basis).

[Nehro]

Does anyone know timelines for processing applications of spouses of Irish citizens including naturalised irish citizens? Are these applications processed in a different queue and processed faster than other applications?

My wife is eligible thru myself as a naturalised citizen and also on 5 years residency. Wondering how do i apply her application ?

Regards

ChIrl
As far as I know, no significant difference in the duration of processing. My personal application (as a spouse) took 22 months to get approved and an extra 1 month to get the certificate. However, if the application is based on marriage to Irish citizen, requests of further payslips and P21 documents may NOT be issued in 2 years time when the application will be examined in detail contrary to applications based on 5 yrs residency; this was at least true in my own application as I was only asked for an amended copy of my birth certificate (issues with name spilling only) but no work or tax related documents were requested when they started to examine my application in detail after 20 months of waiting. So I would recommend the application based on marriage in your case. Good luck

Scrudu
I think you should go ahead with any solicitor you choose as they may have changed their rules. Just keep fingers crossed.

[ChIrl]

Thanks Nehro.

I checked with INIS regarding processing times for spouces of Irish Citizens and have confirmed that processing time is quicker for spouces in comparison to applications based on residency.