Spouse visa application for my croatian wife.

[Mac_UK]

Hi all.

Just had the absolute wonderful pleasure of getting married to my Croatian girlfriend through the last 2 years or so, I will try to make this short, but I feel a little writing is in order as I can not find anything like this on the forum, at least not with this twist.

I meet my wife on the internet and after maybe a year of friendship, it went into quite a bit more and on the 20th of June 2007 she came to visit me in Scotland where I live and work. (I am danish) Things went very well for us in terms of our relationship, and apart from a trip to Denmark after 4 months, we did not see any problems towards returning to the UK for the duration of her 6 month visit visa. Rightly so, there was no problems, and we got issued with a new 6 months for her to visit, and at the time we felt a sense of relief that we could remain together and get to know each other.

To make things short, we have been together from the 20th June 2007, went to Denmark in October 2007, stayed for the duration of the visa, returned to the UK, stayed for 6 months, went to Denmark, back for 6 months then Croatia for a few weeks and returned to the UK, then again to Denmark, got married and we are now back in the UK.

As of yesterday when we returned to the UK from Denmark, the immigration officer informed us that your not actually allowed to stay more than 6 months with in a 12 month period (I believe that is how he put it). I feel I should have known this, but before she came to see me the first time, I went page up and down on what I could find on visits to the UK, and either missed this or did not find anything stating it. (proof that loves makes you either blind or stupid or both)

3 times we entered getting issued with a new 6 month visit visa, and apart from forgetting to book a ticket back to Croatia this summer when coming back from Croatian (This is a must for non EU citizens entering the EU) we were not issued with either warnings or cautions regarding her frequent visits. (There was a caution on entering when we forgot to book the ticket, but they did not tell us)

We really did not have any intentions of keeping this up and I asked her to marry me, and I am happy to say she said yes. We made all the arrangements and got married last week in Denmark.

Once again to return, this time with a planned trip to Croatia to apply for a spouse visa. Now it gets interesting...at least to us and anyone that managed to read this far and not get lost in my endless rambling.

As I wrote above we had quite a chat with the immigration. First the information about staying more than 6 months with in a 12 month period. Lest to say we both went pale and expected that things would not end up with a honeymoon, but a one way for my wife back to Croatia. We explained the situation and showed all the documents they asked for and were asked to wait until they knew what would happen.

In the end she was issued with a spouse visa for 6 months in her passport, and I guess this would at first sound like a very happy outcome from a situation that could have caused quite a stir in our life. We still have to apply for the 2 year spouse through the normal application process. This is what we know, anything from here I hope to end up with a good bed time story for our children some day.

All of this, have created a storm of questions that we would very much like to find answers for.

The first one and most obvious, is this as horrible a mess as it seems, "I wish" wont make the last small two years seem a lessor nightmare to come, since I now feel we have damaged our chances to get the spouse visa, but there were no warnings given to her frequent visits so I am half and half on that issue also since she got issued with a 6 month spouse visa at the immigration, and can invoke the full rights of that visa.

My next question goes with the actual application form, where she is to stated her current location in the application. Since she was, until yesterday, living in Croatia, but now have a spouse visa (6 months in her passport) will that make our address in Scotland the current location she must submit in the application?

I shall cease my master piece for now, and hope that some of you will take the time to answer us, either for good or bad, on before hand, thanks

The newly married.

[Wanderer]

U sure u got a spouse visa? Sounds morel like an EEA Family Permit - can u scan it (with name obliterated) or type it out here?

[Mac_UK]

The Officer we spoke with and who was handling our case at the airport, was very firm when he said this was a spouse visa, I have been looking for examples on Google, with no luck, but here is a picture of the stamp.



Hope this will clear up at least that part of it.

Thanks again,

The newly married.

[sakura]

I've never heard of a six-month spouse visa; it is usually 27-months. Plus, I do not think Immigration Officers can issue spouse visas (or any visa, really?) at the immigration desk.

Also, you might not qualify for a spouse visa: How long have you lived in the UK? If less than 5 years, you most likely did not get a spouse visa.

Your next steps depend now on how long you have been in the UK. Answer that question and I think everything will be much clearer.

[86ti]

I've never heard of a six-month spouse visa; it is usually 27-months. Plus, I do not think Immigration Officers can issue spouse visas (or any visa, really?) at the immigration desk.

Croatians don't need visa for short term visits. Maybe the OP's wife got the stamp from the IO after explaining why she came to the UK?

EDIT: the scan of the stamp shows 'Immigration Office'

[Mac_UK]

I agree with you assessment regarding the issue of a visa when arriving to the UK, and I have been living in the UK for about 3 years, though I have been working here for more than 5 (Use to travel from Denmark every month, 3 weeks work, 1 week off)

And yes, Croatians do not need a visa to enter the UK, we do need a spouse visa for her to live and work here, that is about as much as I know. (I am not aware of any other forms of visa's that would fit us even though I can support us both with my job)

It was made clear that with out us being married, she was not eligible to re-enter the UK with out a spouse visa, since she had had to frequent visits, and the stamp she now holds was giving due to our documentation of our wedding, which as I said, just gives me pause to try and find out what we are really dealing with here.

Is there any way to dig out this information?, anything would be helpful.

We are now in the process of gathering all the documentation we will need to apply for a spouse visa. (Going in may) There seem to be ample information regarding what others have used in obtaining such.

[86ti]

If you do hold permanent residence (PR) already, which you automatically obtain after 5 years of continously exercising your treaty rights (i.e. working in your case), you can apply for a spouse visa = UK route. From your story I am not sure if you would already qualify for PR.

Otherwise you would have to go the EEA route, i.e. apply for a EEA2 residence card via form VAF5. See
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ropeanlaw/ and
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... dlaw/ecis/

If both is applicable to you you will have to carefully assess what is best for you.

[Mac_UK]

Had to dig into my files for the actual dates where I started working in the UK and it is not 5 years, unfortunately, I got my contract in December 2004 so that rules out PR for sure, I was working freelance the first 6 months, and I do not think that counts towards the PR.

And my dear wife found this at the home office website:

Holders of travel documents issued by the Home Office do not require visas to return to the UK. Holders of travel documents who are travelling with and are family members of an EEA national should apply for a visa before arriving in the UK. However under EEA Regulations they may still be admitted with a code 1A for six months if the immigration officer is satisfied the EEA national is exercising a treaty right and that the person is genuinely a family member of said EEA national. Further guidance can be found in the ‘EEA nationals and their families’ section here. Non-UK travel document holders will otherwise require a visa.

Also according to the "rights and responsibility" on the "UK border agency" site, it seems to make sense why she was issued with this "visa" at the immigrations office when we came back. But all of this seems to be a huge amount of information and its difficult to make heads and tails atm.

On a side note, I know one of my former colleges brought his Canadian wife to the UK on a spouse visa (Or so he claimed) and he was a Greek national I believe. This was done shortly after he started flying for our company.

[Wanderer]

Had to dig into my files for the actual dates where I started working in the UK and it is not 5 years, unfortunately, I got my contract in December 2004 so that rules out PR for sure, I was working freelance the first 6 months, and I do not think that counts towards the PR.

And my dear wife found this at the home office website:

Holders of travel documents issued by the Home Office do not require visas to return to the UK. Holders of travel documents who are travelling with and are family members of an EEA national should apply for a visa before arriving in the UK. However under EEA Regulations they may still be admitted with a code 1A for six months if the immigration officer is satisfied the EEA national is exercising a treaty right and that the person is genuinely a family member of said EEA national. Further guidance can be found in the ‘EEA nationals and their families’ section here. Non-UK travel document holders will otherwise require a visa.

Also according to the "rights and responsibility" on the "UK border agency" site, it seems to make sense why she was issued with this "visa" at the immigrations office when we came back. But all of this seems to be a huge amount of information and its difficult to make heads and tails atm.

On a side note, I know one of my former colleges brought his Canadian wife to the UK on a spouse visa (Or so he claimed) and he was a Greek national I believe. This was done shortly after he started flying for our company.

Any form of work (or study or otherwise self-sufficiency) counts towards PR so it seems you can qualify.

I think you have a choice for ur missus - EEA route (free but five years) or UK route (expensive but three years, possibly even two but we'll leave that for now).

[Mac_UK]

I think you have a choice for ur missus - EEA route (free but five years) or UK route

what is the difference in terms of her rights on those two, are they both spouse visas?

(trying to find some info atm on this)

[Wanderer]

I think you have a choice for ur missus - EEA route (free but five years) or UK route

what is the difference in terms of her rights on those two, are they both spouse visas?

(trying to find some info atm on this)

They are both Spousal visas, I think as far as rights are concerned the EEA one makes it easier to travel EU-wide but ur wife being Croatian that's not an issue.

I don't know really - I suppose the only difference in practice is one is free but takes ages, the other is expensive but quicker.

Also folks have encountered long delays in getting the five year RP from the UKBA, making it difficult for the applicant to prove to employers they have the right to work. The PR is automatic, no need to apply but the employer wants to see the vignette in the passport....

[Mac_UK]

Will try to work towards the 2 year UK route spouse, as for the PR, the company I work for is Danish but I am getting my pay checks from the UK office branch, and paying taxes in the UK, so as far as they should be concerned I am living and working in the UK.

Since the stamp in her passport is in reality not a " real" spouse visa, I guess we will enter the information into the visa application as her residence in Croatia. This seems the most logical as well.

[sakura]

Mac_UK, from your posts, it appears you started exercising treaty rights (living and/or working in the UK, whichever) in December 2004. In which case you do not yet have PR (as you have not exercised treaty rights in the UK for five years). In which case your only option would be the EEA route.

As your wife is currently in the UK, you can submit an application form for a residence card (EEA2), as 86ti wrote. She does not need to return home to apply for this (naturally she may want to return home to pack her things and say goodbye to family/friends, etc, but you must note that you will need to send in your passports for this application, and it might take a while, during which time you do not, I believe, get your passports back).

[86ti]

... but you must note that you will need to send in your passports for this application, and it might take a while, during which time you do not, I believe, get your passports back).

You can ask for the passport back at any time. Won't invalidate your application and you keep your place in the queue. Some apply without initially sending the passports.

One other thing to consider is that Croatia will soon (?) join the EU which would make the OP's wife an EU citizen. Then this whole EEA permit/visa spouse thing is a matter of the past. Does going the expensive UK route really make sense to you? It speeds up naturalisation though if that is in your interest.

[Casa]

May not speed it up by much once the Path to Citizenship replacing ILr is introduced. And with the EU route, no need to sit the Life in the UK (KOL) test unless applying for BC.

[Mac_UK]

Ok, so just to get my heading correct.

1: I will need to apply for the EEA residency card (Since I am Danish), include my wife in that form as well, and when that is done, then apply for a spouse visa for her to the UK? (through the UK embassy in Croatia)

2: Or more likely, fill in the EEA application including my wife (what you call the slow way) and have this done from within the UK, leaving us with (what this essentially is about) a permit for her to live with me in the UK.

And yes, Croatia is in negotiations to join the EU, how ever there are some complications since Slovenia put down a veto to this (Sorry I do not follow politics well, we are how ever very interested in this development and hope they do join, it will most likely make all of this a thing of the passed in a near future)

It does however seem the best course to apply through the EEA form, since this will at least start and hopefully complete our wish to begin somewhat a normal life together.

Not to forget, thank you all for taking time to share your knowledge in this, it is invaluable to us (The UK is still a new country to us both in ever so many ways)

Also was reading the rather horrific posts about the waiting time for the EEA forms, my work as a pilot require me to have my passport with me at all times when engaging in in air transport, and it does not make it better that the company's main base is in Denmark. Will have to find a solution, and hope they will give it back fast.

Also, I wonder what happens if this takes more than the 6 months she is allowed to stay, with out her passport she cant leave, what is the appropriate solution to this?

Thanks again, will cease fire for now

[sarkany]

Hi, glad to hear you married a fellow Croatian, but I have to say she will be in for a wait. I probably got the same visa as she from the embassy in Zagreb (6 months EU family member visa), and after few months in UK applied for family member residence stamp (my hubby is from Hungary so it is different, she will have to apply for EEA2 - residence card). However, I still have no reply from the home office and its been a year, and as they have warned you here she will have problems finding a job without a stamp in her passport (or her passport for that matter, I haven't seen mine since January last year so no going home either, though you can ask for your passport back - but get this - I was told that since my EU family visa expired I would have to apply for new one before returning to UK - if I come back without a visa it may be considered illegal for me to stay longer than 3 months since my case was not resolved before I left UK). As for Croatia entering EU, don't count on it, they've been selling us that story for years and they always find some reason not to let us in.... you'll have grandchildren before that happens.... I know this does not help a lot, but my opinion as a Croatian stuck in UK without passport and any papers is that if you can afford it - get a solicitor.

[Mac_UK]

Thank you Sarkany for sharing your story with us, it at least gives us a few pictures, if not grim, about our future, and we both find the not knowing what will happen, the worse part by far.

We will give it careful consideration as to what to do since we might have a different option as off December this year where I will be able to show 5 years of steady work here in the UK, and might qualify for PR. This as I understand it will enable us to apply for a spouse visa from Croatia for her.

On the other hand, she has been on visit here since June 2007, and although we will, or at least she will, be stuck for the duration of the long wait, we might just give it our best shot now, and see where it takes us as either option will use up most of 2009 (So it indicates)

As for Croatia entering the EU, I agree its only speculation and only time will tell. It is not something we will sit around and wait for to solve our situation.

We will set forward to gather all the information we can find that could have relevance to the application, weather it be one or the other, it looks like a lot of it is the same.

Will cross our fingers for you guys Sarkany

[86ti]

- but get this - I was told that since my EU family visa expired I would have to apply for new one before returning to UK - if I come back without a visa it may be considered illegal for me to stay longer than 3 months since my case was not resolved before I left UK ... get a solicitor.

That is nonsense. You won't be illegal since your status in the UK derives solely from you relationship to an EEA national. By law you are not required to apply for the residence card. Who told you so by the way?

I don't think that in straightforward cases like the ones described here a solicitor would be necessary. People, don't let others scare you so much!

[sarkany]

Sorry if I sounded a bit gloomy I did not want to scare anyone, but I wrote from my experience. The information on travel was given to me when I called HO in summer 2008 as I wanted to go home for two weeks. By the way, I just received a letter from my MP saying that my case was resolved in November and that I asked that they should reconsider it - which is a blatant lie. I did not know they resolved anything therefore I could not ask for them to reconsider it - and reconsider to what? That is why I think they should get a solicitor. It is only my opinion and I hope they have better luck, I certainly do not wish this for anyone.

[86ti]

Sorry if I sounded a bit gloomy I did not want to scare anyone, but I wrote from my experience. The information on travel was given to me when I called HO in summer 2008 as I wanted to go home for two weeks. By the way, I just received a letter from my MP saying that my case was resolved in November and that I asked that they should reconsider it - which is a blatant lie. I did not know they resolved anything therefore I could not ask for them to reconsider it - and reconsider to what? That is why I think they should get a solicitor. It is only my opinion and I hope they have better luck, I certainly do not wish this for anyone.

I understand that you didn't want to scare anyone here. I was referring to outside sources. It is unfortunately the HO telephone drones who haven't a single clue and spread such messages. On the other hand we shouldn't be too surprised since it is HO that ignores it's own laws.

[sakura]

Mac_UK, it really depends on when your wife wishes to move to the UK. She can stay put right now and apply for an EEA residence card, or return to Croatia and wait until December to apply for a spouse visa. What are you planning to do? Does she want to work/study in the UK?

[Mac_UK]

We have not got so far as to thinking about jobs and education as of yet, but it is of course something she will want to have in mind in the near future. We can live of what I do, and I do not know if she can be credited for the 2 years of study at Zagreb university etc.

Staying here now for her wont be a problem really, we did plan and buy tickets for Croatia in May, but if we apply for the EEA soon, that will have to wait until things are resolved with HO. In this we are mostly happy to take our time, there is enough things to get done, including we want to find a better place to live right now, before making the application, since we cant leave to visit family all that easy, we can at least make room for them to come stay with us.

We will make a final decision when we find our new home, hopefully that wont take more than maximum 2 months.

[86ti]

Staying here now for her wont be a problem really, we did plan and buy tickets for Croatia in May, but if we apply for the EEA soon, that will have to wait until things are resolved with HO.

What is there to resolve? Your current status is clear and you can apply for EEA2 right away.

If you opt for the spouse visa you have to make sure first that you have indeed PR and your wife would have to apply for the spouse visa in Croatia.

[Mac_UK]

By resolve I mean they will take what ever time they need to process our application, and at the moment I am not sure what kind of documentation they will want us to send with the application if anything besides the obvious ones (Marriage certificate, pass ports, housing, bank statements, etc etc)

I do not think we will wait to opt for the PR in December, will try the EEA even if it takes long, and as I said, we are not dependent on her getting a job atm.

And yes, we shall send the EEA form as soon as its humanly possible

At least we are a bit more calm regarding what to expect, and its just a matter of time and effort now.