ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Does my father need naturalisation if arriving during WWII?

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

Please use this section of the board if there is no specific section for your query.

Moderators: Casa, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, Administrator

Locked
klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Does my father need naturalisation if arriving during WWII?

Post by klock » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:10 pm

Hi there all,

I would appreciate if anyone can shed light on the following problem. Here it is the situation followed by my questions....

SITUATION

I would like to get a passport for my father.

He was born to polish parents who were en route to Britain during the second world war. He was born in italy a just a few days before they took the boat to England, where they where interned and then settled.

Upon arrival, his parent were not to his knowledge naturalised (they are now deceased), and neither to his knowledge was he.

Apart from the first few days of his life, he has been in England ever since. He was educated there, worked there, paid taxes, and has retired there. He has never left England for a holiday of course.

He has a full birth certificate which names the location of the port where he was born in italy, and details of his parents. He does not own any other documents pertaining the the time.

As an adult, his two brothers both had themselves naturalised.


QUESTIONS.

1) In these circumstances, would he still require to be naturalised in the standard way, in order to apply for a passport?

2) If he remains un naturalised, is he somehow breaking the law?

3) Is there a way to find out if he has been naturalised by his parents without his knowledge.

4) If he requires it and chooses to become naturalised, is this likely to be an easy or risky process in his case?

5) Just what nationality is he? Surely not Italian?



I believe this case is quite interesting and I would be happy to hear from anyone with specific knowledge in these regards!





.

JAJ
Moderator
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Australia

Post by JAJ » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:02 am

1. Yes.

2. No, but he is asking for trouble if he is living in the United Kingdom with no evidence of permission to be in the country!

3. If his parents didn't become citizens, then he isn't a citizen. Is he sure about that? The National Archives may have evidence of their arrival in the country. The Home Office may also have evidence, although I would be cautious about approaching them ... he could be an attractive "soft target" for deportation.

4. Before he can even think about naturalisation, he needs to sort out his immigration status. He may have to apply for settlement under the 14 year long residence rule, and if so, he needs to do this quickly in case it is removed.

5. Not Italian. Either Polish or stateless. Can he get a Polish passport?

He probably needs an immigration solicitor to sort out this mess, try http://www.lauradevine.com

klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by klock » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:22 am

Thanks for your reply JAJ, it is much appreciated!

Its annoying because this was almost 70 years ago and if he had been born 3 days later he would have been born in england.

He has no direct ties to poland whatsoever, so i cannot see that they would have the slightest record of him.

How is it that he can be here for so long, work, pay taxes, have NI number, buy a house, and all that, if he hasnt been made a citizen?

PaperPusher
Respected Guru
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:47 pm
Location: London

Post by PaperPusher » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:34 am

Hello klock
He was born to polish parents who were en route to Britain during the second world war. He was born in italy a just a few days before they took the boat to England, where they where interned and then settled.

Upon arrival, his parent were not to his knowledge naturalised (they are now deceased), and neither to his knowledge was he.

Apart from the first few days of his life, he has been in England ever since. He was educated there, worked there, paid taxes, and has retired there. He has never left England for a holiday of course.

He has a full birth certificate which names the location of the port where he was born in italy, and details of his parents. He does not own any other documents pertaining the the time.

As an adult, his two brothers both had themselves naturalised.


QUESTIONS.

1) In these circumstances, would he still require to be naturalised in the standard way, in order to apply for a passport?

2) If he remains un naturalised, is he somehow breaking the law?

3) Is there a way to find out if he has been naturalised by his parents without his knowledge.

4) If he requires it and chooses to become naturalised, is this likely to be an easy or risky process in his case?

5) Just what nationality is he? Surely not Italian?
I think the clue to your father's situation is that his brothers seem to have applied to become naturalised British citizens.

I am sure that if he is here legally there is no problem with him not being naturalised.

People don't become automatic British citizens simply through long residence in the UK.

Look at it this way, some countries only allow people to have one citizenship, so if this happened people could find they have their citizenship of birth or choice taken away from them against their will. Many people live forever in the UK without choosing to become British and without wanting to become British, I don't see anything wrong with that.

It seems logical to me that your grandparents came here legally if they came as refugees during the war, because the government would have been very strict about who was coming into the UK in wartime. I could be wrong however.

I would hope that it would be easy for your father to become naturalised if that is what he wishes to do.

Even if he is here without having been given permission as a baby, this should be easy to sort out with an application for Indefinite Leave to Remain based on at least 14 years residence.

The only spanner in the works that I could see to either application is if he has a terrible, recent, criminal record (not speeding tickets!).

Perhaps his local MP could help him. If there is a problem I am sure this is just the sort of story his local paper would love to run! Even the Daily Mail loves these kind of stories!

LOCAL PENSIONER LIVING HERE HIS WHOLE LIFE IS REFUSED CITIZENSHIP

The Data Protection Act may mean that the very old paperwork has been weeded and destroyed, unless it has gone to the National Archives. The government is not supposed to keep records longer than necessary and over 60 years is a very long time to keep a closed file.

I am a bit more optimistic that JAJ.

I think the Home Office stands a cat in hell's chance of removing him. I think a Judge would laugh the HO out of court if they tried.

Even if he has a terrible past, you may remember Chindamo:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 62522.html

Please note that if he applies for citizenship and is under 65 he will probably have to do the "Knowledge of Life in the UK" test.

If you think that this is a mickey take and disrespectful to your father, I know people who have lived here for over 40 years and don't even speak basic English (or Welsh, Gaelic or BSL) but became citizens before the test. This is one of the supposed reasons for the tests being brought in.

See here for more info about applying for citizenship:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/

Regards

klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by klock » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:18 pm

Thanks a lot paper pusher for your great efforts and the time you took to write your reply. That is very kind of you and I am touched by that.

To be honest, the main reason behind all this is because we recently lost my mother and I would like for him to come and see me, as I personally live on the continent right now.

He doesnt have any secret criminal past at all. He was just a victim of displacement in the war. However, he cannot obviously travel without a passport and he cannot easily get a passport if he has to go through all of these issues settlement / naturalisation issues.

I have a feeling he will therefore wish to remain as is, and not pursue the matter further, as it seems to be quite a fuss and not without risks.

PaperPusher
Respected Guru
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:47 pm
Location: London

Post by PaperPusher » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:23 pm

klock

Please accept my condolences on the loss of your mother.

Don't give up this easily.

Has your father been able to talk to his brothers or their families about their applications for naturalisation, perhaps they used some papers relating to his parents that could help and the papers are still around?

I mentioned crime because it would have an impact on an application and how straightforward that would be.

If he is over 65 he doesn't have to do the test.

I think this could be more straight forward than you think. If he is settled here then an application to be naturalised would be straightforward I hope. Perhaps his local MP could write a letter of support to draw attention to his case.

A visit to a local MP would help, if for nothing else but to reasure you both that he has someone who will give advice and get information.

Perhaps you need to find a way to get to speak to someone at the Nationality Department who can help:
For enquiries about British citizenship or right of abode (from United Kingdom residents) you may telephone the Nationality Customer Contact Centre on 0845 010 5200. Opening hours are 0900 - 2100 Monday to Friday excluding Bank Holidays.

Monday is a particularly busy day, and we would advise customers wishing to contact us on Mondays to telephone after 1800.

Customers dialling this number will have an option to speak to an adviser:

About general enquiries regarding British citizenship and right of abode, or
To request application forms.
The United Kingdom Border Agency does not retain records of the grant of British citizenship (citizenship of the United Kingdom and colonies or British subject status) prior to October 1986. Requests for duplicate certificates for grants made from that date should be made using the request form which you can download from the right side of this page.

Duplicate certificates of registration (January 1949 - October 1986) and of naturalisation (1870 - May 1969) are held by the National Archives. Information on how to obtain certified copies of the certificates is available at the National Archives website.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... p/contact/

I think that the National Archives may be able to help you get your uncles' details:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/fami ... alisation/

if you cannot do it in writing maybe you could ask them if it is worth taking a visit to Kew.

I am sure that this is do-able if your dad want to become a British citizen.

Please let us know how you get on.

klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by klock » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:16 am

Many thanks for your second post paper pusher.

It is truly kind of you to find the time and inclination to provide your thoughts, information, and also inspiration!

I will consider your advice carefully and will let you know how things go.

1963British
Member
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:13 pm

Needs a Polish (EU) Passport

Post by 1963British » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:09 pm

This is actually not a problem at all. It is clear under Italian Nationality law that he is not Italian because his father was not Italian. However under Polish law he is clearly Polish!!
1. APPLICANTS WHO WERE BORN OR HAVE FAMILY FROM POLAND.

• By descent from parents, where at least one of them is a Polish citizen

A child acquires Polish Citizenship by birth when:
1. Both parents are Polish citizens, or
2. One of the parents is a Polish citizen, whereas the other is of unknown or undefined citizenship or does not possess any citizenship (Art. 4)

A child of parents of which one is a Polish citizen, while the other is a citizen of another country, acquires Polish Citizenship by birth. However, parents may, in a declaration made in conformity before the proper authority within the course of three months from the day of the birth of the child, choose for their child citizenship of another country of which one of the parents is a citizen, if according to the law of that country, the child acquires its citizenship.
So where does that leave your father? He is a EU Citizen who has been exercising the EU Free Rights of Movement since March 2004;
On March 1, 2004, Poland, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta and Slovakia will become members of the European Union (EU). Of these countries, Poland has by far the largest population and the biggest economy. With a population of 36 million, Poland will also be entitled to proportionate representation within the bodies of the EU.
Next month, on 1 March 2009 your father will have completed his five years of uninterrupted residence as a self sufficient person and can apply for a no fee permanent residence card;
Permanent residence

After you have lived in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of five years you can apply for confirmation of your permanent residence. You will need to have been living in the United Kingdom and in employment, self-employment, studying or self-sufficient throughout the five-year period.
I believe that after one year as an EU Permanent Resident he may then apply for British Citizenship!!

The good news is that your father is not an illegal and has nothing to fear because he is a Polish (EU) Citizen!!

It is probably a good idea for your father to apply for his Polish Passport from the Polish Embassy in the UK. You will need his birth certificate, birth certificates of his mother and father and possibly their marriage license. The Embassy will be able to help.

Also it is probably better to get this all sooner rather than later with the introduction of eventual mandatory British ID cards. Your father will probably go into a "panic" as he starts reading about these mandatory ID cards and what will happen to him. I am sure he will feel much better knowing that he is living here in the UK as a lawful EU Citizen!!

You may want to tell your father that he needs to do this now, while it is simple and easy. You can do the first step by contacting the Polish Embassy on his behalf to make initial contact and explain the situation. I know that in the United States, they are very helpful to individuals who wish to obtain Polish passports.

Oh, with his Polish Passport in hand he can visit anyone, anywhere, without any fear. This may actually help him sleep at night because he may be thinking he is an illegal.

Cheers or maybe I should say Nasdroveah!

klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by klock » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:28 pm

thank you ever so kindly 1963british!!!!

I had not checked this thread for a little while because I thought that there would not be so much more to say. however, what 1963british says sounds quite promising!!

I must admit i had not thought about contacting the Polish Embassy.

May I ask in very simple terms what the application for no fee permanent residence card entails? Also, is this a long process?

Secondly, by asking for a Polish passport, would he be in any way jeopardising his position of living in England? In other words, he has spent his entire life, bar the first few days, in England, and would be concerned by the propect that by either getting a passport or applying for residence and / or citzenship, that there is a risk that he might be turned down?

One last question that bothers me... it is said that he has been exercising the EU free right of movement since 2004. However, if has was here before this time, does that mean he was breaking any rules, and would this have any consequence?

kind regards
klock

PaperPusher
Respected Guru
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:47 pm
Location: London

Post by PaperPusher » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:56 pm

klock

I am not convinced he needs to apply for any sort of residency, mainly because his brothers got citizenship. Are there any papers that could help him that they used?

Has he got anything official apart from his birth certificate?

klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by klock » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:58 am

So, in what way would his brothers citizenship affect things paperpusher?

I am not aware of which papers that the brothers might have.

He only has his birth certificate, but it is a full birth certificate with his parents details on it.

If he didnt need to apply, would he still get in touch with the polish embassy regarding a passport do you think?

PaperPusher
Respected Guru
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:47 pm
Location: London

Post by PaperPusher » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:11 pm

Hello

I thought that if your uncles, grandparents and father all came to the UK at the same time, whatever means (paperwork or explanation) that your uncles used to apply for citizenship could be used by your father too because their circumstances are likely to be similar.

If he wanted to contact the Polish embassy he could.

Does you father know you are looking in to all this?

klock
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by klock » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:32 pm

Yes thats a good point, its just that he isnt in much contact with his brothers lately.

I did tell him that i would look into this matter discreetly but would not take any formal actions without his consent.

Locked