Switzerland joins Schengen

[archigabe]

Switzerland joins Schengen

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... reise.html

Switzerland is now a part of Schengen, third country nationals with residence permits of Ireland and the U.K will now have to apply for visas for entry into Switzerland...unfortunately, this is a step backward for EEA and Stamp4EU fam residence card holders of U.K and Ireland.

[charles4u]

Switzerland joins Schengen

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... reise.html

Switzerland is now a part of Schengen, third country nationals with residence permits of Ireland and the U.K will now have to apply for visas for entry into Switzerland...unfortunately, this is a step backward for EEA and Stamp4EU fam residence card holders of U.K and Ireland.

Wow....this is a good news, Yes its good Switzerland don't accept Residence card as family from UK and Ireland as visa-free....good to know

[AxeZ]

I do believe that UK and Ireland not joining Schengen agreement is step backward for Europe as a whole.

[fysicus]

Switzerland joins Schengen

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... reise.html

Switzerland is now a part of Schengen, third country nationals with residence permits of Ireland and the U.K will now have to apply for visas for entry into Switzerland...unfortunately, this is a step backward for EEA and Stamp4EU fam residence card holders of U.K and Ireland.

First of all, I fully agree with Axez that UK and Ireland are to blame for staying outside Schengen, and any travel restriction that is a consequence of that!
Anyway, holders of a Residence Card issued according to directive 2004/38 should enjoy the same visa-free travel to Switzerland as to all other Schengen countries. Because there are no (systematic) border checks between Schengen countries there is simply no other possibility, even though Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member state.

[86ti]

Anyway, holders of a Residence Card issued according to directive 2004/38 should enjoy the same visa-free travel to Switzerland as to all other Schengen countries. Because there are no (systematic) border checks between Schengen countries there is simply no other possibility, even though Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member state.

From a practical point of view you are right but remember that some EU countries have largely ignored Article 5 of the directive and considered anyone with the RC alone to be illegal. At least that's what some embassies said and we had reports here that people have even been deported. I hope the Swiss will be more pragmatic.

[charles4u]

Guys there is a different between not joining Schengen and implementing the full EU & and Schengen rules, The UK and Ireland did not implement the full rules of the EU and Schegen so therefore they have limitaions and have the rights to make national law on some conditions which have kinda backslide to them.

For example...the EU wants to create EU police and one security system but they excluded this from UK and Ireland but the UK said they should be included (they have taking the EU to the ECJ). Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus are not Schengen but they implemented full members so they have the same systems and follow the same directive/laws.

So the problem is UK and Ireland themselves, not even them joining Schengen ..its the fact is they don't even implement the rules.

[Richard66]

Are we sure UK residence cards will not be accepted? Even before Swizerland joined Schengen residence cards issued bu every single EU and EEA country was valid as a short stay visa. I fail to understand why joining Schengen changes this.

[Plum70]

Are we sure UK residence cards will not be accepted? Even before Swizerland joined Schengen residence cards issued bu every single EU and EEA country was valid as a short stay visa. I fail to understand why joining Schengen changes this.

UK residence cards are not accepted on their own for entry into Switzerland anymore. Family members in possession of a UK RC need to apply for a Swiss Schengen visa. Good news? It is FREE!

[86ti]

Good news? It is FREE!

Of course it's free. Schengen regulations.

[JG]

The problem I have is that you need 3 months left on your UK visa to get a schengen visa - mine expires 2 months after my trip to Sitzerland in January therefore I cannot get aschengen visa - and I booked a paid for my trip 6 months ago. From what I can gather there is nothing I can do - any suggestions ?

[Plum70]

Of course it's free. Schengen regulations

For the benefit of those who may not know this 86ti.

[Plum70]

The problem I have is that you need 3 months left on your UK visa to get a schengen visa - mine expires 2 months after my trip to Sitzerland in January therefore I cannot get aschengen visa - and I booked a paid for my trip 6 months ago. From what I can gather there is nothing I can do - any suggestions ?

Doubt that you would get any embassy to issue you with a schengen visa so close to the expiry of your passport. The best way to find out about the Swiss is to call the premium rate number: 0906 577 1222 (answered by a member of staff at the Swiss Visa Centre), from Monday to Friday between 08.30 h to 20.00 h or via the following email address: visaswiss.uk@vfshelpline.com

[86ti]

Hier is an up to date list (PDF) with residence titles that entitle to visa-free travel into the Schengen area in point 2.3. In short: only Schengen permits are listed.

The page is in German but also French and Italian available here (choose from the top right).

[charles4u]

....This is the English version.

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... reise.html

[fysicus]

I asked basically the same question directly to the Swiss government for clarification. To be honest, I do not understand their logic. They now require a visa for a category of persons who:
a) had visa free access to Switzerland before they joined Schengen, and
b) had and still have visa free access to all other Schengen states

my question:

I am an EU national exercising Treaty Rights in the UK, and my wife has Ukrainian nationality. We live here together (of course) and she has in her passport a Residence Card, issued according to EU directive 2004/38, which exempts her from the visa requirement for all EU member states (according to article 5.2 of this directive). And in fact she also travelled to Switzerland on a business trip about a year-and-a-half ago without visa and was admitted on the strength of this Residence Card without any problems.
However, now that Switzerland has recently joined the Schengen area, it seems (from the FAQ page on the VF Services (UK) Limited website, to which you refer on your embassy website) she would in the future need to apply for a visa to enter Switzerland, even though she still enjoys visa-free travel to all other Schengen states??
http://ch.vfsglobal.co.uk/faq.aspx

answer from: Legal Advisor Schengen / Dublin
Federal Department of Justice and Police FDJP Federal Office for Migration FOM Entry & Admission / Visa Quellenweg 6, 3003 Bern-Wabern
http://www.bfm.admin.ch/

As Switzerland is not member of the European Union the mentioned EU directive 2004/38 does not apply to Switzerland. Therefore the Visa exemption for a third state national is not valid for Switzerland either. Furthermore, the UK is not part of the Schengen Agreement and with Switzerland joining the Schengen Area the policy towards third state members with resident permit in the UK has also changed. Persons who hold a resident permit for family members of EU nationals are required to obtain a visa. Your wife will therefore need a visa in order to enter Switzerland.

[86ti]

I asked basically the same question directly to the Swiss government for clarification. To be honest, I do not understand their logic.

Not logical but perhaps a simple consequence from the current law.

[Plum70]

However, now that Switzerland has recently joined the Schengen area, it seems (from the FAQ page on the VF Services (UK) Limited website, to which you refer on your embassy website) she would in the future need to apply for a visa to enter Switzerland,

even though she still enjoys visa-free travel to all other Schengen states

??

Has your wife been able to travel (accompanied or solo) to France, Spain, Belgium... without applying for a Schengen visa and without any complications on entry at the borders?

As Switzerland is not member of the European Union the mentioned EU directive 2004/38 does not apply to Switzerland. Therefore the Visa exemption for a third state national is not valid for Switzerland either. Furthermore, the UK is not part of the Schengen Agreement and with Switzerland joining the Schengen Area the policy towards third state members with resident permit in the UK has also changed. Persons who hold a resident permit for family members of EU nationals are required to obtain a visa. Your wife will therefore need a visa in order to enter Switzerland.

I think that the response you got makes perfect sense. If Switzerland were wholly part of the EU then the UK Residence card should (in practice) allow non-EEA Family members visa free access to such countries. As it stands the bilateral agreements they have with the EU (& the UK) seem insufficient to bind them absolutely to the EU Directive.

Same problem with the UK, with it's feet "one in and one out" of the EU, it is non-Schengen, doesn't recognize the residence cards from other Schengen/EU member states and requires that non-EEA Family members (visa nationals) obtain an EEA Family permit prior to entry. I guess it's a game of "an eye for an eye".

By the way, France and Belgium are part of the EU and still require that non-EEA family members apply for a (free) schengen visa before travel.

[fysicus]

Has your wife been able to travel (accompanied or solo) to France, Spain, Belgium... without applying for a Schengen visa and without any complications on entry at the borders?

Yes, quite a few times when we travelled together and on one occasion even on solo travel (destination Austria, but entering Schengen via Schiphol-Amsterdam Airport).

I think that the response you got makes perfect sense.

I don't agree; it does not make sense except perhaps for a lawyer out of touch with reality. I can accept that they have no legal obligation to accept UK-issued residence cards (not being a member of the EU), but the combination of joining Schengen and at the same time making travel more difficult for some EU-residents is not logical!

France and Belgium are part of the EU and still require that non-EEA family members apply for a (free) schengen visa before travel

so they are breaking the law...

Now having said all this, I do suppose that Switzerland should be legally bound by the Schengen Borders Code (as can be found at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/other-schengen/) and my wife definitely falls in the category persons enjoying the Community right of free movement as defined here in article 2.5, and who according to article 7.2 should normally only be subject to a minimum check when entering the Schengen area (regardless where).

[Richard66]

It all boils down to the UK and Ireland's pig-headed insistence in not joining Schengen. This is the price to pay for "keeping control of our borders". The day they decide their position is counterproductive discussions such as this one will be mercifully in the past.

As for the UK they still ask for estensive information for non-EEA family members, require fingerprints, bank statements, work contracts, accommodation confirmation... Talk about France and Belgium... The problem lies closer to home.

My wife has to submit to this indignity next week for an EEA FP. From what I have heard it takes one week to ontain, so the "accelerated procedure" seems to be non-existent. I have had visas to Russia given to me quicker and with no nonsense such as fingerprints.

[Plum70]

I think that the response you got makes perfect sense.

I don't agree; it does not make sense except perhaps for a lawyer out of touch with reality. I can accept that they have no legal obligation to accept UK-issued residence cards (not being a member of the EU), but the combination of joining Schengen and at the same time making travel more difficult for some EU-residents is not logical!

Again, Switzerland is not part of the EU and therefore (by their interpretation) have no legal duty to allow freedom of movement to non-EEA/EU family members residing in a non-schengen state (in this case the UK).
However, they do issue the Schengen visas free of charge if that is any comfort.

France and Belgium are part of the EU and still require that non-EEA family members apply for a (free) schengen visa before travel

so they are breaking the law...

Oh Yes

[ca.funke]

The fact that Switzerland no longer accepts UK and Irish residence-cards of EU or EEA-family members may be legally OK(?), however the decision is ridiculous, out-of-touch with reality and does not give Switzerland any advantages:

In general, a Visa is required for people where it is deemed necessary to determine, before they travel, if they

• are a security risk to the country
• will return home after a proposed journey
• or if there is any other reason why it may be unwanted to have this person on ones own territory

Schengen has two main aspects to it:

• Firstly, the less obvious aspect, is the exchange of data between all Schengen-Memberstates: Whoever applies for a Schengen-Visa with any member-state will be entered into a database, which all member-states can access. This part is called SIS (=Schengen Information System).
  • Thus if Malta (example) is looking for person xyz, and xyz applies for a Visa in Sweden (example), the Swedish embassy would be automatically informed and takes appropriate action. (Not grant the Visa, Grant the Visa to be able to arrest the person on arrival...)
• Secondly, the more obvious aspect, is the abolition of "routine and systematic border-checks" between most (=not all!) member-states: Such "routine" checks are in place at external Schengen borders, which logically forms one big border.
  • The logic is: If xyz (wanted by Malta) enters into Schengen anywhere, he will be arrested or sent back. Hence the Maltese do not need to check people arriving from within Schengen, as xyz cannot be arriving via this route.

The logic so far is 100%, while reality is not: Of course there is a chance of xyz crossing the border illegally (=without a Visa), and then travelling on freely within Schengen.

The UK and Ireland want to check everyone's papers on entry, as they fear illegal entries via the route described above. Therefore:

• All Schengen-countries applying BOTH aspects of the above are "applying the Schengen-Acquis in full" as they like to put it.
  • Within these countries, usually, travel is free and border-controls are not existent.
• Ireland and the UK opted to be members of Schengen, but only concerning SIS, NOT the abolition of internal routine-border controls.
• Thus, UK-, Irish- and usual "Schengen" Visas are all Schengen-Visas as far as SIS is concerned BUT
• valid for different territories, namely
  • "all Schengen-countries which apply the Acquis in Full" OR
  • UK only OR
  • Ireland only

Switzerland's refusal to accept EU/EEA-family-member cards as valid for entry is therefore ridiculous:

• All EU/EEA family-members living in UK/Eire
  • MUST be granted a Visa if they apply for one
  • would be allowed to move to Switzerland permanently anyway, so no check whatsoever makes sense
  • are already registered in the SIS, therefore Switzerland receives no new data through the Visa application
  • could get to Swiss territory without risk by legally going to any EU-Schengen-country(through
    2004/38/EC), and then (illegally) crossing the "open" landborder.
• As a summary: None of the reasons why a Visa is usually asked for is applicable

The way it's handled in practice is not understandable/justifiable, especially because Switzerland used to unilaterally accept EU/EEA-family-member cards as valid for entry before they joined Schengen.

The main purpose of Schengen is to have one set of rules that allow entry into all countries applying the Acquis in full, or deny entry altogether.

Thus, having a situation where people are allowed to enter SOME Schengen-countries (=all EU-countries through 2004/38/EC) but not others (Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway) foils the fundamental idea of Schengen. The competing rules of 2004/38/EC and Schengen, which are not aligned to make sense, create a contradictory senseless situation.

[ca.funke]

Trying to investigate a bit further.

Should I get a reply on the below I'll post it here.

I actually sent the German version further below, the English is FYI.

---------- Translated message ----------
From: Christian
Date: 9/March/2009
Subject: Visa for family-members of EFTA / EU citizens
To: dub.vertretung@eda.admin.ch, info@eda.admin.ch


Dear Swiss embassy Dublin,
Dear Swiss Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

I am an EU citizen and until recently lived in Dublin. As I'm married to a
Lebanese citizen I have been interested in EU and Schengen Visa
regulations for a while now.

Until Switzerland joined the Schengen-Area Irish "resident cards for
family members of EU-citizens" (in Ireland called "4EUFam") were
accepted for entry into Switzerland.

Since Switzerland joined the Schengen-Area , these 4EUFam-Cards are
no longer accepted by Switzerland.

This is, especially because of the now open land-borders, illogical:

Directive 2004/38/EC allows entry into all of the EU with a 4EUFam card.
Hence, family-members of EU citizens can now enter all countries
surrounding CH/FL, but may not enter CH/FL * itself.

It would be nice to hear your point of view on this.

Rgds, Christian

---------- Original message ----------
From: Christian
Date: 9/March/2009
Subject: Visa für Familienangehörige von EFTA / EU Staatsangehörigen
To: dub.vertretung@eda.admin.ch, info@eda.admin.ch


Sehr geehrte schweizerische Botschaft in Dublin,
Sehr geehrtes Departement für auswärtige Angelegenheiten,

ich bin EU Bürger und wohnte bis vor kurzem in Dublin. Mit einer
libanesischen Staatsangehörigen verheiratet interessiere ich mich seit
geraumer Zeit für Visaregeln innerhalb der EU und innerhalb Schengens.

Bis zum Beitritt der Schweiz zum Schengen-Raum wurden irische
"Aufenthaltskarten für Familienangehörige von EU-Bürgern" (in Irland
"4EUFam" genannt) zur Einreise in die Schweiz anerkannt.

Seit dem Beitritt der Schweiz zum Schengen-Raum werden
4EUFam-Karten in der Schweiz nicht mehr anerkannt.

Dies ist, insbesondere aufgrund der nun offenen Land-grenzen, unlogisch:

Die 4EUFam-Karte erlaubt nach Richtlinie 2004/38/EC die Einreise in
die gesamte EU. Somit dürfen Familienangehörige von EU-Bürgern mit
der 4EUFam-Karte nun in alle Nachbarländer der Schweiz und
Liechtensteins einreien, nur in die Schweiz/FL * nicht mehr.

Es wäre nett eine Erläuterung Ihrer Sichtweise zu erhalten.

Gruss, Christian

* EDIT: As can be read in the thread later on, this is not correct - 4EUFam-holders may even enter FL, they´re just not allowed to enter Switzerland. At the time of writing I wasn´t aware of that.

[86ti]

Directive 2004/38/EC allows entry into all of the EU with a 4EUFam card.
Hence, family-members of EU citizens can now enter all countries
surrounding CH/FL, but may not enter CH/FL itself.

Actually, EU should read EEA instead here and FL should be covered directly by the directive, see http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 01:EN:HTML

[86ti]

The fact that Switzerland no longer accepts UK and Irish residence-cards of EU or EEA-family members may be legally OK(?)

It is maybe legal. The Swiss probably just replaced their old regulations with the Schengen rules. I suppose EEA-family members just don't appear anymore as the free movement agreement between Switzerland and the EU doesn't make mention of it. EEA-family members were not an exception in the old rules but simply part of a whole package allowing most(?) residents of the UK to come to Switzerland.

On the other hand the Schengen Borders Code does mention the special provisions of the directive.

[ca.funke]

Hi 86ti, does the cited law (whatever it is) mean, that 2004/38/EC is applicable in the EFTA-countries as well?

Not being an expert, I'd interpret the following passage as such:

(...) the EEA Joint Committee (...) HAS DECIDED AS FOLLOWS:

Article 1

(...)Directive 2004/38/EC (...) shall, for the purposes of the Agreement, be read with the following adaptations:
(...)
(c) The words "Union citizen(s)" shall be replaced by the words "national(s) of EC Member States and EFTA States".
(...)

In this case 4EUFam would be valid throughout the EU, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland?

Also, the Swiss embassy in Dublin would be giving at least misleading information by saying...

Visa handling fee
The visa handling fee in general is EUR 60.00. It is due upon application and is not refundable. The visa fee is payable in cash.

If you are married to an EU/EFTA citizen or one or both of your parents are EU/EFTA citizens, the visa is free of charge. Please provide the Embassy also with your marriage- or birth certificate and your spouse's passport or your parent(s) passport(s) as proof.

If you wish to have your passport returned to you by post you must supply the Embassy with a self-addressed registered envelope.

...as this suggests that family members need a visa, although they don't?

Can you shed some more specific light on this?