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Citizenship timeline tracker.

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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jhbmike
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:40 pm
Location: Dundalk

Post by jhbmike » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:15 am

LuasPassenger wrote:
tom4 wrote:
jhbmike wrote:...all applications up to the end of 2006 are in Dublin office ...
Sorry to be contradictory, but that is not necessarily so, mine was mid '06 and the letter asking for further documents was on Tipperary letterhead in an envelope postmarked Tipperary.
I sent mine in Spring 2006 and it was also processed in Tipperary. I think only applications from 2005 and before were fully processed in Dublin.

However, I think that after Garda check any further processing takes place in Dublin: minister's approval and also the actual issuing of the certificate of naturalisation seems to happen in Dublin.

So what happens in Tipperary is the thorough examination of your papers and some checks. That's the "quick part". It seems that once all your papers are in order and have asked you for further documents (P21, etc), your file is forwarded to the Garda and then to the office in Dublin for the final stage.

LP
That makes sense

crown
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:05 pm

Post by crown » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:59 pm

jhbmike wrote:
LuasPassenger wrote:
tom4 wrote:
jhbmike wrote:...all applications up to the end of 2006 are in Dublin office ...
Sorry to be contradictory, but that is not necessarily so, mine was mid '06 and the letter asking for further documents was on Tipperary letterhead in an envelope postmarked Tipperary.
I sent mine in Spring 2006 and it was also processed in Tipperary. I think only applications from 2005 and before were fully processed in Dublin.

However, I think that after Garda check any further processing takes place in Dublin: minister's approval and also the actual issuing of the certificate of naturalisation seems to happen in Dublin.

So what happens in Tipperary is the thorough examination of your papers and some checks. That's the "quick part". It seems that once all your papers are in order and have asked you for further documents (P21, etc), your file is forwarded to the Garda and then to the office in Dublin for the final stage.

LP
That makes sense
Does it? Someone applies 2006 and still on the queue without any indication of an end date to this tortuous wait

justalad
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:11 pm
Location: Ireland

Post by justalad » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:12 pm

Below are our timelines for naturalisation. I know it is a long and tedious wait but I hope our experiece will help a bit. We were in for a 30 month wait and got it in 22 and 25 months respectively.

I Applied

Applied 11/01/2007 (send application to the Dublin office)
1st Acknowledgement 16/01/2007 (from the Dublin office)
2nd Acknowledgement 23/04/2007 (from the Dublin office)
All correspondance after this date was from Tipp office
No Request for additional documents BUT I send P21, Payslips, Bank Statements and Dole Payment declaration on the 11/11/2008
Receive acknowledgement of above documents on the 12/11/2008
Receive cert approval letter on the 23/01/2009
Will make my declaration either on the 03/03 or the 16/03 but will only submit my final documents at the end of April because I'm off on holidays (outside Ireland) for most of April.

I've been living and working in Ireland since 2000, married before moving to Ireland. Had not received any dole payments but use PSRI dental and eye examination cover. My wife and I are the same nationality. (see her timeline below). We have two children who were born in Ireland and they have Irish nationality. INIS does not even know about our kids unless they got the information from somewhere else – I can’t remember that I’ve put it in the application form. The lad was only born 16 months ago and we never inform INIS.

My Wife

Applied 15/01/2007 (send application to the Dublin office)
1st Acknowledgement 18/01/2007 (from the Dublin office)
2nd Acknowledgement 09/05/2007 (from the Dublin office)
All correspondance after this date was from Tipp office
Request additional documents (P21, Payslips, Bank Statements and Dole Payment declaration) 28/08/2008
Send additional documents on the 03/09/2008
Receive acknowledgement of of above documents received 11/09/2008
Receive cert approval letter on the 23/10/2008
Make declaration of fedility on the 19/01/2009
Send all documents on the 20/01/2009
Receive acknowledgement of above documents on 21/01/2009
Receive cert on the 25/02/2009

She has been living and working in Ireland since 2000, married before moving to Ireland. She had not received any dole payments but receive maternity benifits and PSRI dental and eye examination cover.

We both applied for long term recidency on the 08/09/2006 and got approval on the 23/09/2008. We had to submit PCC which we did about 2 weeks before we got approval.

We've never called INIS and have not supplied any additional documentation except for what has been described above. The only reason I’ve submitted my additional documents was because they requested documents from my wife and because we applied at the same time I though they will request the same within a few weeks anyway.

Good luck to all.

Persol
Newly Registered
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: Claiming Dental Benefit

Post by Persol » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:54 pm

citi wrote:Hi,

I was told last week that my application has gone to the minister for a decision after nearly 2 years sice applying. I have claimed denal benefit for an oral examination once before based on my PRSI Contributions. Do you think this would affect my citizensip application

Thanks

Citi
PRSI is YOUR money not the government money! That is YOUR right!

crown
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:05 pm

Post by crown » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:24 pm

jhbmike wrote:oh well then there is no logic to there system.
I just heard from someone that someone he knows was given naturalisation letter last week
Can there be any explanation? Does the Minister sign in batches after it has gone to his office? The couple applied 2007
Crown

Dublin1
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:59 am

Post by Dublin1 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:57 am

FAQ wrote:
crown wrote:
FAQ wrote:
tom4 wrote:I think someone (not on this forum) has at least got a decision in February.
See my earlier post regarding PQs.
Yes you are right , they approved some of certs ..one of my friend granted
in end of jan or early feb...he applied in last week of jan07 and I did in early feb 07 so waiting for decision taken by minister..
FAQ
Do you mean that some citizenship had been granted this year They told me since that mine had gone to the minister Does that mean I am not in that batch? Next batch?
Interesting!
Wonder when the next batch is.
Tom 4, jhbmike any news?
yes there is ..few my friends granted ..there is so many file and they have to short them ..and you have to know about official ways of working ...some one told me 3 rd week of month minister looks files..so I am waiting for my call on next month..thats my idea about me as they told as well..so lets wait and watch..
any body know some one who had been refuse because of going to social welfare ..so called DOLE ..? any one please drop some hints or experience..or know some one...?
Well, I was attending a course today and by chance there was 3 bus. Anaylst from INIS attending the course, so I had chat with one of them, asking him about the flow of the process. he said one of the checks after the garda report is welfare report too.

The guy who is updating the website was there too, and I asked him to change and put newer news, rahter than the one wich is there since xthmas :)

Heybabyy
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:13 pm

Post by Heybabyy » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:48 am

I rang up on Tuesday and had to give up after holding for over 20 mins.

Tried today and latest message from INIS - The office is currently closed due to industrial action.......ring on next tuesday.

LuasPassenger
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:33 pm
Location: Ireland

Post by LuasPassenger » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:07 am

Heybabyy wrote:I rang up on Tuesday and had to give up after holding for over 20 mins.

Tried today and latest message from INIS - The office is currently closed due to industrial action.......ring on next tuesday.
:(

Aceform
Member of Standing
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:07 pm

Post by Aceform » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:25 am

justalad wrote:Below are our timelines for naturalisation. I know it is a long and tedious wait but I hope our experiece will help a bit. We were in for a 30 month wait and got it in 22 and 25 months respectively.

I Applied

Applied 11/01/2007 (send application to the Dublin office)
1st Acknowledgement 16/01/2007 (from the Dublin office)
2nd Acknowledgement 23/04/2007 (from the Dublin office)
All correspondance after this date was from Tipp office
No Request for additional documents BUT I send P21, Payslips, Bank Statements and Dole Payment declaration on the 11/11/2008
Receive acknowledgement of above documents on the 12/11/2008
Receive cert approval letter on the 23/01/2009
Will make my declaration either on the 03/03 or the 16/03 but will only submit my final documents at the end of April because I'm off on holidays (outside Ireland) for most of April.

I've been living and working in Ireland since 2000, married before moving to Ireland. Had not received any dole payments but use PSRI dental and eye examination cover. My wife and I are the same nationality. (see her timeline below). We have two children who were born in Ireland and they have Irish nationality. INIS does not even know about our kids unless they got the information from somewhere else – I can’t remember that I’ve put it in the application form. The lad was only born 16 months ago and we never inform INIS.

My Wife

Applied 15/01/2007 (send application to the Dublin office)
1st Acknowledgement 18/01/2007 (from the Dublin office)
2nd Acknowledgement 09/05/2007 (from the Dublin office)
All correspondance after this date was from Tipp office
Request additional documents (P21, Payslips, Bank Statements and Dole Payment declaration) 28/08/2008
Send additional documents on the 03/09/2008
Receive acknowledgement of of above documents received 11/09/2008
Receive cert approval letter on the 23/10/2008
Make declaration of fedility on the 19/01/2009
Send all documents on the 20/01/2009
Receive acknowledgement of above documents on 21/01/2009
Receive cert on the 25/02/2009

She has been living and working in Ireland since 2000, married before moving to Ireland. She had not received any dole payments but receive maternity benifits and PSRI dental and eye examination cover.

We both applied for long term recidency on the 08/09/2006 and got approval on the 23/09/2008. We had to submit PCC which we did about 2 weeks before we got approval.

We've never called INIS and have not supplied any additional documentation except for what has been described above. The only reason I’ve submitted my additional documents was because they requested documents from my wife and because we applied at the same time I though they will request the same within a few weeks anyway.

Good luck to all.
justalad,

Many thanks for the updates. Congratulations to you both on getting the cert.

Could you please clarify on the Dole Payment Declaration? what is this exactly.

Cheers,
Ace

opengl
Newly Registered
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:11 pm

Post by opengl » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:07 pm

An interesting debate in Dail about the Citizenship delays:

44. Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his plans to address the delay in processing a citizenship application; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7674/09]

Deputy Dermot Ahern: There are 16,853 applications for naturalisation with the citizenship division of my Department that are still awaiting a decision. This is primarily due to the significant increase in the volume of applications received in the past number of years. In 2002, there were 3,500 applications, whereas in 2008 the number of such applications was 10,885. This upward trend seems set to continue and it is anticipated that applications for naturalisation will increase to 14,000 this year.

Following the decentralisation of the citizenship division to Tipperary town, substantially increased resources have been made available to it to reduce backlogs and provide a better quality service to all applicants. This investment has also had a positive impact on processing times. The average processing time from application to decision for the generality of valid applications for certificates of naturalisation is 22 months, down from 30 months. It is expected that this will progressively improve over the coming year to an average timeframe of 18 months, which I regard as a reasonable target. In fact, the division is currently commencing further processing of applications received in mid-2007.

It would be useful for me to set out for the House the procedures employed to assess applications for naturalisation. Upon receipt, an initial examination of each application is carried out to determine that the application form is completed fully and correctly and that all requested supporting documentation has been submitted. Passports and other documentation are then examined in detail and inquiries with the Garda National Immigration Bureau also are necessary to determine if the applicant meets the statutory residency criteria as set out in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended. A significant number of applications are initially found to be invalid for a variety of reasons and these are now being dealt with and returned to the applicant within a week.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

Further processing takes place at a later stage and involves assessing an applicant’s financial status in respect of his or her ability to support himself or herself in the State. Inquiries with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs may be necessary in this regard. Investigations are also undertaken to determine if the applicant can be considered to be of good character. Depending on the complexity of any given case, these processes can take a lengthy time to complete. Once all inquiries are completed, the file is referred to me for a decision.
The Deputy will appreciate that a certificate of naturalisation is an exceptional and important document that facilitates a non-national becoming a citizen of Ireland. Therefore, there is a limit to the reduction in the processing time that can be achieved as applications for naturalisation must be processed in a way which preserves the necessary checks and balances to ensure that the status of citizenship is not undervalued and is only given to persons who genuinely satisfy the necessary qualifying criteria. The procedures involved have been developed and refined over a number of years and I am satisfied that they are necessary to maintain the integrity of the naturalisation process.

Deputy Denis Naughten: The Minister might come back to me with the number deemed invalidated at the start of that process.

Why has the information on the Department’s INIS website not been updated to take account of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004? The website, which was launched as a one-stop shop in 2007, is supposed to give people information on how to go about applying for citizenship but it does not even include the changes that came into force as a result of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. In this era of e-Government, is it acceptable that such information is not available on the website? Is it acceptable that while the website was launched in 2007, the information had not been revised and has not been revised subsequently?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: That has not been brought to my attention heretofore. I will have it changed as quickly as possible. However, all the applicants know the information required, and they would be told clearly on application. As I stated, ultimately we must get the checks from the Garda, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and from other agencies, and this normally creates the delay in the application.

At the same time people must accept that citizenship is not something that can be given out willy-nilly. The giving of citizenship of our country to somebody is a privilege. We must ensure that these people have loyalty and fidelity to, and are not a burden on, the State when they become naturalised. It is only fair. Any examination of systems in other country, I would hazard a guess, would show the process takes even longer than in Ireland.

On the investment in Tipperary, I visited the decentralised office in Tipperary which has new technology and software available. They are able to make the decisions, and to return queries to persons who have applied, ever more quickly.

Deputy Denis Naughten: I put it to the Minister that the basic information of which we speak is like the third secret of Fatima. The reason I came across this information is because an applicant, married to an Irish citizen, who should have been able to apply did not know that they were legally entitled to apply for citizenship based on the Department’s website. Is it the case that the vast majority of these applicants numbering nearly 17,000 are persons who have contributed to the economy, who are married to Irish citizens or who are supporting critical jobs in the economy, mainly within the health service?
Is it acceptable that information on the Department’s website that should have been revised nearly five years ago has not been revised? Does the Minister believe that is part of the reason so many of these applications are rejected in the first instance?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I do not accept that. From my dealings in my constituency on naturalisation applications, I am aware that people generally know what is required. It is not rocket science. They need an application and they need the supporting documents including passports and documentation on their legal stay while in Ireland.

The issue of marriages is a complex area. It is one of the reasons there are delays. As I stated to Deputy Naughten and others who have attended the Committee Stage debate on the immigration Bill, there is significant fraud with marriages of convenience in this country, whether we like it or not, and that is one of the reasons the authorities, particularly the Garda and the Department, must be extremely vigilant on the type of information being portrayed to ensure that genuine cases get through. We should stamp out the practice where people, in effect, marry out of convenience in order to claim Irish citizenship or residency, and we are working with our EU colleagues in that respect.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Given what the Minister stated in his reply, and having regard to the fact that queries are dealt with at the beginning of the application within a matter of months and the documents are returned as being invalid, would he accept that the vast majority of files awaiting approval go through? If so, and in view of what Deputy Naughten stated about those working and living in the State, many of them married to Irish citizens, would the Minister consider according those persons voting rights,-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is a different question, I am afraid.
Deputy Charles Flanagan: -----particularly those from non-EU countries because those from EU countries may vote in the European elections in any event?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister does not have responsibility for voting. A brief final reply on the other matter.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I am not sure what the other matter is.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Voting rights for applicants.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: No. That is not the Minister’s responsibility.

Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his plans to review the eligibility criteria for a citizenship application; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7671/09]

Deputy Dermot Ahern: A general review of the framework for the acquisition of Irish citizenship is underway in my Department. This will be progressed in consultation with the Office of the Minister for Integration. Among the issues being considered as part of that exercise is the general question of whether current eligibility requirements are appropriate and also whether language and integration requirements should apply to naturalisation applications. In addition, it is necessary to take account of the proposals contained in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008, particularly those regarding long-term residence.

In conducting a review of our citizenship requirements, it must be remembered that Irish citizenship is a great privilege. It cannot and should not be simply a matter of calculating periods of time in the State. On the contrary, it should be seen as a major and mutual commitment by the prospective citizen and the State. It is entirely appropriate in those circumstances that the State should require that the applicant demonstrate a real commitment to the nation. It is with this overarching principle in mind that the review is being conducted.

Deputy Denis Naughten: I accept the Minister’s point that citizenship is a great honour and should be treated in that manner. As I said, however, when we debated the issue of citizenship on Committee Stage of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill, there is no reliable information available to the public at the moment. It is like the third secret of Fatima, trying to find out what information is required and what criteria are being judged in considering citizenship applications. I gave the Minister one example concerning legislation that was enacted here in 2004, but which still has not been updated on the website. Is it not the case that many of the 30% of applications that are awaiting a response from the applicant could be dealt with far more expeditiously if that information was made available in the first instance? The current system is far too obscure in providing basic rules and information as to what documentation is required from a potential applicant. Is it not the case that we have people who want to contribute to our community and society, yet we are giving them the administrative two fingers as regards providing them with the criteria to be considered?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: That is not the case. Every case is different and there are different requirements in every single case. No two cases are the same. The conditions are well laid out in the legislation and are easily accessible.

Deputy Denis Naughten: That is not true. They are not easily accessible.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Ultimately, the Minister may, at his absolute discretion, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation, provided that certain statutory conditions are met. The conditions are simple and include being of full age, good character, having a continuous one-year period of residence in the State immediately before the application, and intending in good faith to reside in the State after naturalisation. Those are the general conditions and there are more specific ones depending on what category the person falls into.

Deputy Denis Naughten: It is causing huge problems.

opengl
Newly Registered
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:11 pm

Post by opengl » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:09 pm

It is so difficult to understand the logic. 2006 waiting 2007 approved.

277. Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason for the delay in processing the garda clearance request by the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service for a person (details supplied) in County Dublin; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7447/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): An application for a certificate of naturalisation from the person referred to in the Deputy’s Question was received in the Citizenship Section of my Department in November, 2006. Officials in that section will be forwarding the application to me for a decision in the very near future.

272. Deputy Damien English asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the progress of an application by a person (details supplied) in County Meath; when he will make a decision on this application; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7223/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): An application for a certificate of naturalisation from the person referred to in the Deputy’s Question was received in the Citizenship Division of my Department in November 2006. Processing of the application has been completed and I have reached a decision. The person in question was informed of my decision in a letter issued to them via their legal representatives on 22 January, 2009.

269. Deputy Dinny McGinley asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if an application for certificate of naturalisation has been received in his Department in respect of a person (details supplied) in County Leitrim; when same was received; if it is being processed at the moment; when it is expected that a decision will be made; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7114/09]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): An application for a certificate of naturalisation from the person referred to in the Deputy’s Question was received in the Citizenship Division of my Department in June 2006. Officials in that Section inform me that processing of the application has commenced and the file will be submitted to me for a decision in due course. I am informed that the address the Deputy has provided differs from the address my Department holds on file. It is the responsibility of the applicant to keep the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) informed of any change of address in writing.

Aceform
Member of Standing
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:07 pm

Post by Aceform » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:35 pm

opengl wrote:An interesting debate in Dail about the Citizenship delays:

44. Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his plans to address the delay in processing a citizenship application; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7674/09]

Deputy Dermot Ahern: There are 16,853 applications for naturalisation with the citizenship division of my Department that are still awaiting a decision. This is primarily due to the significant increase in the volume of applications received in the past number of years. In 2002, there were 3,500 applications, whereas in 2008 the number of such applications was 10,885. This upward trend seems set to continue and it is anticipated that applications for naturalisation will increase to 14,000 this year.

Following the decentralisation of the citizenship division to Tipperary town, substantially increased resources have been made available to it to reduce backlogs and provide a better quality service to all applicants. This investment has also had a positive impact on processing times. The average processing time from application to decision for the generality of valid applications for certificates of naturalisation is 22 months, down from 30 months. It is expected that this will progressively improve over the coming year to an average timeframe of 18 months, which I regard as a reasonable target. In fact, the division is currently commencing further processing of applications received in mid-2007.

It would be useful for me to set out for the House the procedures employed to assess applications for naturalisation. Upon receipt, an initial examination of each application is carried out to determine that the application form is completed fully and correctly and that all requested supporting documentation has been submitted. Passports and other documentation are then examined in detail and inquiries with the Garda National Immigration Bureau also are necessary to determine if the applicant meets the statutory residency criteria as set out in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended. A significant number of applications are initially found to be invalid for a variety of reasons and these are now being dealt with and returned to the applicant within a week.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

Further processing takes place at a later stage and involves assessing an applicant’s financial status in respect of his or her ability to support himself or herself in the State. Inquiries with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs may be necessary in this regard. Investigations are also undertaken to determine if the applicant can be considered to be of good character. Depending on the complexity of any given case, these processes can take a lengthy time to complete. Once all inquiries are completed, the file is referred to me for a decision.
The Deputy will appreciate that a certificate of naturalisation is an exceptional and important document that facilitates a non-national becoming a citizen of Ireland. Therefore, there is a limit to the reduction in the processing time that can be achieved as applications for naturalisation must be processed in a way which preserves the necessary checks and balances to ensure that the status of citizenship is not undervalued and is only given to persons who genuinely satisfy the necessary qualifying criteria. The procedures involved have been developed and refined over a number of years and I am satisfied that they are necessary to maintain the integrity of the naturalisation process.

Deputy Denis Naughten: The Minister might come back to me with the number deemed invalidated at the start of that process.

Why has the information on the Department’s INIS website not been updated to take account of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004? The website, which was launched as a one-stop shop in 2007, is supposed to give people information on how to go about applying for citizenship but it does not even include the changes that came into force as a result of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. In this era of e-Government, is it acceptable that such information is not available on the website? Is it acceptable that while the website was launched in 2007, the information had not been revised and has not been revised subsequently?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: That has not been brought to my attention heretofore. I will have it changed as quickly as possible. However, all the applicants know the information required, and they would be told clearly on application. As I stated, ultimately we must get the checks from the Garda, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and from other agencies, and this normally creates the delay in the application.

At the same time people must accept that citizenship is not something that can be given out willy-nilly. The giving of citizenship of our country to somebody is a privilege. We must ensure that these people have loyalty and fidelity to, and are not a burden on, the State when they become naturalised. It is only fair. Any examination of systems in other country, I would hazard a guess, would show the process takes even longer than in Ireland.

On the investment in Tipperary, I visited the decentralised office in Tipperary which has new technology and software available. They are able to make the decisions, and to return queries to persons who have applied, ever more quickly.

Deputy Denis Naughten: I put it to the Minister that the basic information of which we speak is like the third secret of Fatima. The reason I came across this information is because an applicant, married to an Irish citizen, who should have been able to apply did not know that they were legally entitled to apply for citizenship based on the Department’s website. Is it the case that the vast majority of these applicants numbering nearly 17,000 are persons who have contributed to the economy, who are married to Irish citizens or who are supporting critical jobs in the economy, mainly within the health service?
Is it acceptable that information on the Department’s website that should have been revised nearly five years ago has not been revised? Does the Minister believe that is part of the reason so many of these applications are rejected in the first instance?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I do not accept that. From my dealings in my constituency on naturalisation applications, I am aware that people generally know what is required. It is not rocket science. They need an application and they need the supporting documents including passports and documentation on their legal stay while in Ireland.

The issue of marriages is a complex area. It is one of the reasons there are delays. As I stated to Deputy Naughten and others who have attended the Committee Stage debate on the immigration Bill, there is significant fraud with marriages of convenience in this country, whether we like it or not, and that is one of the reasons the authorities, particularly the Garda and the Department, must be extremely vigilant on the type of information being portrayed to ensure that genuine cases get through. We should stamp out the practice where people, in effect, marry out of convenience in order to claim Irish citizenship or residency, and we are working with our EU colleagues in that respect.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Given what the Minister stated in his reply, and having regard to the fact that queries are dealt with at the beginning of the application within a matter of months and the documents are returned as being invalid, would he accept that the vast majority of files awaiting approval go through? If so, and in view of what Deputy Naughten stated about those working and living in the State, many of them married to Irish citizens, would the Minister consider according those persons voting rights,-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is a different question, I am afraid.
Deputy Charles Flanagan: -----particularly those from non-EU countries because those from EU countries may vote in the European elections in any event?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister does not have responsibility for voting. A brief final reply on the other matter.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: I am not sure what the other matter is.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Voting rights for applicants.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: No. That is not the Minister’s responsibility.

Deputy James Bannon asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his plans to review the eligibility criteria for a citizenship application; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7671/09]

Deputy Dermot Ahern: A general review of the framework for the acquisition of Irish citizenship is underway in my Department. This will be progressed in consultation with the Office of the Minister for Integration. Among the issues being considered as part of that exercise is the general question of whether current eligibility requirements are appropriate and also whether language and integration requirements should apply to naturalisation applications. In addition, it is necessary to take account of the proposals contained in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008, particularly those regarding long-term residence.

In conducting a review of our citizenship requirements, it must be remembered that Irish citizenship is a great privilege. It cannot and should not be simply a matter of calculating periods of time in the State. On the contrary, it should be seen as a major and mutual commitment by the prospective citizen and the State. It is entirely appropriate in those circumstances that the State should require that the applicant demonstrate a real commitment to the nation. It is with this overarching principle in mind that the review is being conducted.

Deputy Denis Naughten: I accept the Minister’s point that citizenship is a great honour and should be treated in that manner. As I said, however, when we debated the issue of citizenship on Committee Stage of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill, there is no reliable information available to the public at the moment. It is like the third secret of Fatima, trying to find out what information is required and what criteria are being judged in considering citizenship applications. I gave the Minister one example concerning legislation that was enacted here in 2004, but which still has not been updated on the website. Is it not the case that many of the 30% of applications that are awaiting a response from the applicant could be dealt with far more expeditiously if that information was made available in the first instance? The current system is far too obscure in providing basic rules and information as to what documentation is required from a potential applicant. Is it not the case that we have people who want to contribute to our community and society, yet we are giving them the administrative two fingers as regards providing them with the criteria to be considered?

Deputy Dermot Ahern: That is not the case. Every case is different and there are different requirements in every single case. No two cases are the same. The conditions are well laid out in the legislation and are easily accessible.

Deputy Denis Naughten: That is not true. They are not easily accessible.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Ultimately, the Minister may, at his absolute discretion, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation, provided that certain statutory conditions are met. The conditions are simple and include being of full age, good character, having a continuous one-year period of residence in the State immediately before the application, and intending in good faith to reside in the State after naturalisation. Those are the general conditions and there are more specific ones depending on what category the person falls into.

Deputy Denis Naughten: It is causing huge problems.
Good one opengl. Thanks for sharing.

pahadia
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Ireland

July-2006 Applications

Post by pahadia » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:43 pm

Anyone applied in July-2006 and remaining document sent on Nov-2008 heard anything. I missed the oppertunity to call them today. I'll call next week. In January they said application was ready to go for ministrial approval.Havn't heard anything since then.Any one on the same boat ?

jhbmike
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Location: Dundalk

Re: July-2006 Applications

Post by jhbmike » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:45 pm

pahadia wrote:Anyone applied in July-2006 and remaining document sent on Nov-2008 heard anything. I missed the oppertunity to call them today. I'll call next week. In January they said application was ready to go for ministrial approval.Havn't heard anything since then.Any one on the same boat ?
At least 3 that I know of........ check last 3-4 pages

cnu
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Post by cnu » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:54 pm

opengl, great work! Thanks a lot for taking the pain and posting!

Nehro
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Ireland

Post by Nehro » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:20 pm

Thanks opengl for the great effort you have put in your posting..

tom4
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Post by tom4 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:29 pm

Thanks for the PQ info, just the usual "...blah, blah, blah...", from the minister I'm afraid, standard replies, doesn't say anything, pretends not to know there are a number of problems.

18 months reasonable?? What planet is he on?

With the AVERAGE now at 22 months, there's just a little more fudging of the figures to be done to achieve his target.

"It is only fair. Any examination of systems in other country, I would hazard a guess, would show the process takes even longer than in Ireland."
Not so Mr. Ahern, the UK (with whom Ireland loves to compare itself for almost everything else) apologises for taking longer than about 4 to 5 months, a number of others are about 9 months.
And he's not paid to GUESS, look at the facts.

Enough ranting now.

Civil servant strike today, therefore probably nothing in the post tomorrow.

tom4
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Post by tom4 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:38 pm

Dublin1 wrote:The guy who is updating the website was there too, and I asked him to change and put newer news, rahter than the one wich is there since xthmas :)
Wouldn't it be a great idea if there was the facility to enter your 68 number and some other identifying info and see online what is happening with your application? Can't be too hard, surely. It would cut the number of phone calls too.

cnu
Junior Member
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Post by cnu » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:12 pm

My guess is they just dont wanna give it that easily - make life difficult for us so that we loose hope... when the whole economy stands up they want the immigrants again ... :evil:

nicepecsigot
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Location: ireland

Post by nicepecsigot » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:20 pm

can anyone give me link to the english version of the certicate of naturalisation

tom4
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Post by tom4 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:36 pm

nicepecsigot wrote:can anyone give me link to the english version of the certicate of naturalisation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/si/0567.html

Form 11, near the end.

Aceform
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Re: Claiming Dental Benefit

Post by Aceform » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:35 pm

citi wrote:Hi,

I was told last week that my application has gone to the minister for a decision after nearly 2 years sice applying. I have claimed denal benefit for an oral examination once before based on my PRSI Contributions. Do you think this would affect my citizensip application

Thanks

Citi
That shouldn't affect the decision. I know atleast 2 people who received their Naturalisation certs late last year who claimed for optical benefits.

Also having couple of penalty points on your Driving Licence should have no affect.

anotherimmigrant
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Post by anotherimmigrant » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:42 pm

Great work Opengl!
Any news from Thursday callers club?! :D

justalad
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Location: Ireland

Post by justalad » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:21 pm

Aceform wrote:justalad,

Many thanks for the updates. Congratulations to you both on getting the cert.

Could you please clarify on the Dole Payment Declaration? what is this exactly.

Cheers,
Ace
Ace,

Sorry declaration was the wrong word. The letter requesting additional documents stated "In addition I would be obliged if you could submit a statement from you local Department of Social and Family Affairs Office outlining claims, if any, made by you over the last 5 years". Because I have not made any claims I just send them a cover letter with all the other documents requested and signed by me stating that I have not made any claims from the Department of Social and Family Affairs Office.

Hope this answers your question.

jastalad

crown
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Post by crown » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:23 pm

cnu wrote:My guess is they just dont wanna give it that easily - make life difficult for us so that we loose hope... when the whole economy stands up they want the immigrants again ... :evil:

That is it!
frustrate you and then you probably give up
That is the game
But please dont give up
Keep at it
One after the other we will smile
Great work Opengl

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