EU residency/work visa for American husband of Estonian wife

[Richard66]

In a way they are right, your daughter will not need as visa — as an American citizen.

And those are the people who actually issue visas.

To me the Italian authoroties say my futire child will also be a British citizen and not Italian, yet, like you, I am British by descent.

Welcome to the 2nd Class British Citizen's club!

[prudence1]

Wow! That is a pickle. So in effect your future child is stateless? What a screwed up situation. Is your wife pregnant, or this hypothetical? If pregnant, many congratulations. This kid thing is the best thing I've ever done.

[Richard66]

Yes, she is pregnant. We are happy to have the child, but we fear for its future.

I think the UK will need in future to consider the problems the "citizenship by descent" causes in the EEA, where birth does not concede citizenship. I remember the case, some years ago, of a couple who were both British by descent who lived in Belgium, where they had a child who was consequently stateless.

[Ben]

Oh, I just got this....from the Italian Consulate via email:

Please be informed that since you are a citizen of one of the European Union countries, your daughter will also have the citizenship of your country and therefore she will not require a visa for Italy. Your husband who is a US citizen and who will be working in Italy will require a work visa. For the required documents you will need to view the webpage of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs

For goodness sake. Shame on the Italians. First they tell you that Britain is not part of the EU, then that your daughter is a British citizen when she (probably) isn't (wait for JAJ to come on for clarification there). Now they're telling you that your husband needs a work visa.

prudence1, as a British citizen, you are entitled to exercise Treaty rights in Italy. What this means to you (and just to echo what the others have said)..

The three of you are entitled to enter Italy and stay for up to three months, without any conditions or formalities, other than the requirement to hold a valid passport each.

Should you intend to stay longer than three months, you (the EU citizen) must exercise an EU Treaty right. In your case, the Treaty right you will be exercising is self-sufficiency (that is, your family unit will able to financially support yourselves).

You and your family members can then remain in Italy for as long as you exercise a Treaty right (until 5 years have passed, when you will all be permanent residents).

While you are exercising a Treaty right in Italy, your family members are entitled to work, to study, or to open a business. Your husband does not need a work visa in order to work (despite what the Italian Consulate are saying). His right to reside and to work is afforded to him because he is a member of your family. However, confirmation of this (already existing) right may be evidenced by the application and receipt of a Residence Card, issued in accordance with EU Directive 2004/38/EC. Richard has advised how to go about obtaining such a Residence Card in Italy.

[Richard66]

For goodness sake. Shame on the Italians.

The Italians speak with the heart.

[prudence1]

Many congratulations Richard on the imminent arrival of your child. It sounds like the citizenship issue for your child is a nightmare, but I hope that it is soon resolved.

I've sent another email to the consulate and am just awaiting their response. I don't mention my husband in it, just my daughter and the fact that she is a US citizen with no access to British citizenship. Hopefully I will get a response this week. I did talk to a very helpful lady at the consulate in Washington DC who said that all we needed was to fill out the family reunion visa form, that it wasn't a big deal at all. From what has been outlined here, thanks to all, it sounds like we just need to make an appointment at the LA consulate bring proof of marriage and our daughter's birth certificate, plus possibly, a letter about the health insurance. Hopefully the LA consulate agrees with this. Now if my US passport and British passport renewal would just move more quickly!

Cheers to all.

[Richard66]

Thank you, prudence, for your best wishes! No, we have no solution in sight yet.

They did not understand anything at the Italian consulate: your daughter and husband need no entry visa as they are non visa nationals and are family members of an EU citizen travelling together. Your lady simply has not understood that they are covered by Directive 2004/38. I suppose they do not have too many cases in the US.

This is a usesess procedure for which the Italian taxpayer will pay: this type of visa should be free. Are they making you pay for it? It should be the "visto di familare al seguito."

[prudence1]

No, no requirement to pay anything. Other than we have to make our way to LA, which will probably cost a few hundred Euros. I'm just going to use your language from here my " daughter and husband need no entry visa as they are non visa nationals and are family members of an EU citizen travelling together. They are covered by EU Directive 2004/38." Print out a copy of the Directive in English and Italian and take it with us when we have our marriage and birth certificate certified or approved or whatever they need to do.

[86ti]

No, no requirement to pay anything. Other than we have to make our way to LA, which will probably cost a few hundred Euros. I'm just going to use your language from here my " daughter and husband need no entry visa as they are non visa nationals and are family members of an EU citizen travelling together. They are covered by EU Directive 2004/38." Print out a copy of the Directive in English and Italian and take it with us when we have our marriage and birth certificate certified or approved or whatever they need to do.

Maybe you also want to print the Italian implementation of the directive.

[Richard66]

Here it is:

Art. 5.
Diritto di ingresso

1. Ferme le disposizioni relative ai controlli dei documenti di viaggio alla frontiera, il cittadino dell'Unione in possesso di documento d'identità valido per l'espatrio, secondo la legislazione dello Stato membro, ed i suoi familiari non aventi la cittadinanza di uno Stato membro, ma in possesso di un passaporto valido, sono ammessi nel territorio nazionale.

2. I familiari non aventi la cittadinanza di uno Stato membro sono assoggettati all'obbligo del visto d'ingresso, nei casi in cui e' richiesto. Il possesso della carta di soggiorno di cui all'articolo 10 in corso di validità esonera dall'obbligo di munirsi del visto.

Right of Entry

2. Family members who are not citizens of a Member State are required to be in possession of an entry visa, in the cases where it is required.

Art. 10.
Carta di soggiorno per i familiari del cittadino comunitario non aventi la cittadinanza di uno Stato membro dell'Unione europea

1. I familiari del cittadino dell'Unione non aventi la cittadinanza di uno Stato membro, di cui all'articolo 2, trascorsi tre mesi dall'ingresso nel territorio nazionale, richiedono alla questura competente per territorio di residenza la «Carta di soggiorno di familiare di un cittadino dell'Unione», redatta su modello conforme a quello stabilito con decreto del Ministro dell'interno da emanarsi entro sei mesi dalla data di entrata in vigore del presente decreto legislativo. Fino alla data di entrata in vigore del predetto decreto, e' rilasciato il titolo di soggiorno previsto dalla normativa vigente alla data di entrata in vigore del presente decreto.

2. Al momento della richiesta di rilascio della carta di soggiorno, al familiare del cittadino dell'Unione e' rilasciata una ricevuta secondo il modello definito con decreto del Ministro dell'interno di cui al comma 1.

3. Per il rilascio della Carta di soggiorno, e' richiesta la presentazione:
a) del passaporto o documento equivalente, in corso di validità, nonche' del visto di ingresso, qualora richiesto;
b) di un documento che attesti la qualità di familiare e, qualora richiesto, di familiare a carico;
c) dell'attestato della richiesta d'iscrizione anagrafica del familiare cittadino dell'Unione;
d) della fotografia dell'interessato, in formato tessera, in quattro esemplari.

For the issue of the residence card the following documents need to be produced:

Valid passport and entry visa, if required.

I have marked pertinent passages in boldface.

As I said before, Americans need no entry visa.

The transposition does not even speak of family reunion visas.

If you want confirmation ask here:

www.tuttostranieri.it/forum

It is a forum like this one, but in Italy. They do speak English, however. They will tell you if I am right or not.

[stato brado]

Maybe you also want to print the Italian implementation of the directive.

the page linked contains the former version of dlgs n. 30/2007, on february 28th 2008, it has been modified with another dlgs n. 32/2008

[Richard66]

The articles in question remain the same. There is a change to article 5, but no one seems to know what it means: it says EU citizens may, if the want to, declare their presence before the three months are over and that failure to do so means their stay has lasted more than 3 months unless they can prove otherwise.

There was a reason for this: on the sly they were trying to introduce measures to allow immediate expulsion of EU citizens on arrival. This was the first step, but the EU has drawn the tooth of the next piece of legislation, which has not yet been approved (and never will, seeing the European Commission's report on the transposition of Directive 2004/38) that said that EU citizens that had not declared their presence within 3 months were considered to be a menace to public security and to be expelled immediately.

As prudence will have her air tickets and her family members will have stamps on their passports as evidence of their day of entry...

There is no penalty for late registration.

[prudence1]

Well, we're here. We got here late last week and I plan to go to City Hall and register tomorrow. Our Italian friend arrives today and as I speak NO Italian yet, I expect it will be helpful to have him along. Another friend with dual citizenship (Italian/US) was given the runaround the other day at City Hall. He had his Italian citizenship papers, but they said that wasn't enough! So for tomorrow I need nothing more than my British Passport and to declare that I have the sufficient amount of money in my bank account. So far I've been told I can't open a bank account here without a residency card, but I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. Just need to find someone willing to help. Perhaps we'll try that again today.

[Richard66]

If the City hall refuses your application make them give you a refusal notice in writing. If they will not, just call the police and denounce them for "ommissione di atto di ufficio". Once they hear that, they change tune amd become reasonable.

No bank has ever asked me for residence documents.

[superyeats]

Richard 66how did it go? I am in a similar situation... I am EU citizen and my wife is not. We are moving to Italy (I am doing a Master)but I'm not sure what she needs to do. Familiare en seguitto seems like a pain because it seems that I would have to go first and we could be separated a while? She is US citizen. Please advise how you fared and what one in a similar boat may need to know. We would love to just go with no visa in hand, register for my resedency w/ my UK passport, then hers based on my residency. We don't know if it is possible. Please advise how it went and thanks!

[Richard66]

Your wife is not a visa national, so she needs no visa to come with you. A visa is only required from her if she were normally required to have a visa, which is not her case.

[freddy12]

we're in a similar position to prudence1 in that we're an EU spouse and a non EU citizen (non visa) in Italy. We have all the required papers (health insurance, marriage license, financial records) except it took a long time to get the right coverage health insurance & marriage license certification sorted and we've had the run around on more than one occasion so it is now past 3 months since we entered Italy (not much, but past 90 days). We're only planning on staying a few more months. The permesso di soggiorno forms are filled out and ready to go. My wife is worried about submitting them now might cause more problems than it is worth, but we're also hoping to go on a couple of jaunts to other EU countries while we're here and I'm worried about readmission and would just like to be above board with everything.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

My wife is worried about submitting them now might cause more problems than it is worth, but we're also hoping to go on a couple of jaunts to other EU countries while we're here and I'm worried about readmission and would just like to be above board with everything.

You are already married?

I can't see that submitting will make a difference one way or another. If you are travelling together and can prove that you have a family relationship (e.g. carrying your marriage certificate), then you can come and go to different EU countries without a problem. In theory there is a 90 maximum before you could be required to get a Residence Card, but if you are travelling you will easily avoid that.