Worldbridge and UK Visas - Service with a scowl

[Richard66]

Due to an emergency we decided to apply for the illegal EEA FP for my Russian wife. I went on Worldbrige's site, UK visas glorious "commercial partner". Among all the online visa forms there seemed to be none for the EEA family permit. No problem: they say that a paper application may be submitted. After long research I managed to find the VAF for the EEA FP. We filled it and tried to book an appointment, but then the system said we can only book if we have applied online. I tried to call them, but their premium number is automatically blocked by the Italian telephone company, so I wrote to them: I quote the message:

Dear Sir / Madam,

My wife wishes to apply for an EEA FP, but there seems to no form available on your site.

As I am in Italy exercising treaty rights my wife is covered by EU law.

She has completed a paper form, as this text,

"Please enter the GWF number If you completed an online application you were given a 12-character unique application number that begins with GWF. If you have filled out a paper application, leave this field blank."

seems to say a paper form may also be submitted. When she tries to make a booking it will not do it, and a message appears, saying she must enter her GWF number. How then can we book an appontment if neither the EEA FP form is available online and it not possible to book an appointment without having filled one?

As most of the information on the form is not required from EEA family members, I take it we only need to submit informtion and documentation about our relationship, eg: her passport and mine and our marriage certificate.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

How inneficient can one be?

[Richard66]

In the end I filled in the form and... Lo and behold! There is NO available list of documents to produce apart from my wife's passport, her old passport or a copy (which is a good idea, really, as it was stolen and someone else might well have tried to gain admittance in the UK with it) and any other document listed on www.britain.it. You go on to that site (UK embassy in Rome) and no documents are listed there.

The funny thing is they ask about my wife's finances and if she intends to work in the UK, but they ask none of this of me. They seemed happy that I am employed.

I mentioned we are applying based on art 9 of the Immigration (EEA) regulations 2006.

I suppose then we shall produce:

Her passport
My passport
Her residence card (says she is a family member)
My (old) residence card (it says I am employed)
Our marriage certificate. Maybe we shall produce the one I hads deposited in the UK. Nice and large and in English!

[isceon]

So did you answer all those intrusive questions?

[Richard66]

No way not to, most of them, but since most answers are negative...

In some places I did write: Not requested. Their asking about where we are going to live... Well, we do not know yet!

I hope they enjoy knowing when her father was born. Will they ban her for 10 years if the date is wrong?

How is the UK allowed to get away with this?

[ca.funke]

Hi Richard,

a while ago we too applied for the illegal EEA-FP.

(We had the grim prospect of having to cross the UK when driving from Ireland to Belgium in our attempt to ultimately leave the jurisdictions of Ireland and the UK. In the end we took a ferry from Ireland directly to France, avoiding the UK altogether, horray )

Back to the EEA-FP: We applied in the British embassy in Dublin.

Illegally (the law sais "has to be issued as fast as possible") they ask you to first get an appointment online, the earliest of which are available roughly after 2 weeks.

Me too, I didn't find the EEA-FP form to fill, so I just took the "normal" form and filled "N/A" for all questions which were illegally asked.

We showed up for the appointment where first of all they illegally asked for a fee, which obviously I refused to pay.

Then I was told that an EEA-FP form is indeed available on the website, and this is the one I would have to fill... (Searching thoroughly I remember I later found it...)

Therefore, they told me, I'd now be allowed to apply for the visa for which I brought the form, but this includes paying the fee and answering all questions as asked on the form.

I made the point that I want an EEA-FP, and as the law sais it has to be issued "as soon as possible" I want to apply for it "now" and receive it "soon", which would be my interpretation of "as soon as possible".

All of this was refused so we just left the embassy, never came back and left via France.

I understand their technical point: They handle visas ONLY via their predefined (but illegal) channels, no exceptions.

Am I bitter? Yes - I hate to see that a country can so bluntly ignore the law. I told the lady that I will take this matter up with the EU, and that the UK's actions, in this case her particular actions, are illegal. You should have seen her superior smile saying "you can take it up with whoever you want, if you want to come to the UK you do as we tell you, or you won't come".

In the end (I guess after some years) the EU will come to the conclusion that the UK's behaviour is/was illegal, and they will be fined and will have to pay some damages.

For me the damage is that I had to take another route for a single journey, so ultimately I don't care for myself.

For others there are much more life-changing issues at stake, and that's where it becomes really bad.

What to do about that I don't know. I'll follow the development of things from Switzerland with great interest. My first impression from Switzerland is truly that it's an honour being allowed to live here: My (little contribution of) taxes are used to give a lot in return. In EU countries, in the UK from personal experience, I'm not so sure about that anymore...

[Richard66]

You actually managed to make it to the British Embassy? In Italy it is possibly easier to talk to the Pope while he is shaving than it is to get into touch with the visa section.

I don't know, but the UK seems to believe the EU has to bow to its superior whims and wishes. Certainly treating its own citizens in such a high-handed manner is depressong.

The form for the illegal visa is indeed online, but try finding it. I had trouble. The disgusting questions cannot be ducked. We filled in one form, in the knowledge Big Brother sees it and can compare this version with the one we filled in last year. Of course mistakes were made and, as suggested by UK Visas itself, we corrected them by hand only to be told by the minions of UK visas that corrections are not well seen by the glorious embassy. We should have filled in the form another time. Why we did not? Because I am sure they would keep track of the first form and check it with the second. We included at least 7 letters, all saying we are married, signed by employers, architects and witnesses to the marriage, as well as pictures of us from 2006 to 2009. We had so much stuff with us the actual marriage certificate remained at home and, being on the direct train, there was no way to turn back. Could we start to apply today and send the certificate by DHL? No. Could we send it to the embassy directly? No: they will send the letter back unopened. Could they take note on the application form that we will send it on request? No. Only solution: come back next day! We refused and continued, writing a note that we are ready to send the certificate as soon as possible. That they could do.

Worldbridge actually called and asked us to send the marriage certificate by fax (having been told earlier this was not acceptable). I sent THREE (normal Italian one, international one and the one deposited in the General Registry office.

I included a letter from my future employer, saying my new job started on 9 March, we said my wife will deliver soon and if the visa is not ready I will need to decline the job offer, but no way: this illegal visa is not ready. There is no news of it and I am afraid now they will delay on purpose.

At this point I see no other solution than to go to court. I believe that denying my child the possibility to become an EEA citizen gives me grounds for a big lawsuit.

Certainly, if our daughter and I could become Italian, I would even gladly renounce my British citizenship. Who wants to be the citizen of a country that hates you and wants to see you as far from its borders as it can?

[Richard66]

I forgot to add, of course, she produced her Italian residence card and her Italian identity card, both which also prove our family relationship.

[Jaydee]

I have been living in Spain for the last 3 years.I met my Ukranian wife here and we have a son who was born here.I am British and our son has a British passport as well.Due to not being able to find work here we have to return to the U.K. I contacted Worldbridge and was advised to apply for an EEA family permit for my wife.We took all our documents to Madrid and applied.Two weeks later we received our refusal !! They informed us that as I could not show proof of paying tax here in Spain that I wasnt exercising a treaty right !! I appealed on the grounds that I was self sufficient here and had been looking for work ,which in itself is "exercising a treaty right"My wife is now in the Ukraine with my son and has an appointment at the British embassy in Kiev tomorrow to apply for a settlement visa.I was informed in Madrid that they dont usually issue Family Permits for British people.They obviously want us to pay 650 euros for our settlement visa instead.I feel very angry with the misleading information from Worldbridge (at 1 euro per minute) Im angry that my appeal would take 6 months !! I feel frustrated that I cant speak to anybody from the embassy by phone.Im very angry at our treatment by the authorities of my own country !!

[Richard66]

I want to sue the UK. Are you willing to join forces with me? That way we divide costs and our case gains more force.

Do you appreciate that your son, unless he lives in the UK, will not be able to pass his citizenship? As the Ukranians do not accept dual citizenship, he might have problems in future.

[Jaydee]

I am hoping that my wife gets her settlement visa from Kiev and she,with my son can join me in the UK asap.Do you think I would have a case to sue the UK for refusing us the Family Permit ? I sent our appeal back to Madrid by DHL because it was urgent in our situation.Then to be told that the appeal could take 6 months was a real blow.It has cost us another two thousand euros for my wife to apply for the settlement visa from the Ukraine with flights,fees etc.Not to mention the money wasted on travelling to Madrid for our original application.If I thought we had a case I would be willing to join you in a case against the UK even if it was to try and stop them treating any more of their citizens in such a abysmal fashion !!

[86ti]

Two weeks later we received our refusal !! They informed us that as I could not show proof of paying tax here in Spain that I wasnt exercising a treaty right !! I appealed on the grounds that I was self sufficient here and had been looking for work ,which in itself is "exercising a treaty right"

Was your wife working?

[Jaydee]

No she wasnt working.

[86ti]

No she wasnt working.

Obviously it wouldn't matter anyway as both UKVisa and UKBA sites say that is must be the British National who had been either a worker or self-employed. I don't know whether the Surinder Singh case supports this view or notl.

[Richard66]

You surely do have a case: the EEA FP could not be denied! What is important is that you did work in Spain since leaving the UK. There is no obligation to be working at any given point, but to have worked and this seems to be your case.

I trust you have residence documentation from Spain attesting your status? Does your wife have a residence card? If this is the case, the very request for this sham visa is illegal.

I wonder if this will be the reason they will use to refuse my application? I was employed till February 2008 and have been registered as unemployed since then, which means I still maintain my status as employed. As I am opening a school here, I recently registered as self-employed and have a VAT registration number.

I think we should find others in a similar situation and then consult a lawyer and see what costs will be.

Obviously it wouldn't matter anyway as both UKVisa and UKBA sites say that is must be the British National who had been either a worker or self-employed. I don't know whether the Surinder Singh case supports this view or notl.

As I have said before, the Surinder Singh case if not up to date: it does not consider Directive 2004/38 and the self-sufficient category is not contemplated.

What makes you think they will grant her a settlement visa? You have already been branded as a non-worker. How will you justify being able to support her once back in the UK?

[Jaydee]

I have a residence card here but my wife doesnt.I was told by Worldbridge that it was of no relevence for a Family Permit as the decision would be based on my status.However for a settlement visa she would have to apply from her own country.I have been here for three years and basically only managed to find casual work amongst the ex-pat community.However I have been self sufficient and showed them our private health insurance policy for all three of us.The reason they gave for refusal was that I couldnt show a Vida Laboral which is a record of paying tax on my earnings.They never took my self sufficiecy or my job-seeking into account even though Ive since found out that by looking for work I am exercising a treaty right !! I sent my appeal forms 6 weeks ago and when I rang the Tribunals Customer Service Centre in the UK this afternoon they said that they have not received anything from Madrid so far and it could take 6 months to deal with the appeal !! In your case,if you can prove you paid tax on your earnings you should be ok.It doesnt matter if it was not recently.

[Richard66]

I am afraid they fooled you. If your wife is resident in Spain she should apply from Spain, not from her home country. Why does she not have a Spanish residence card? She ought to have one, as your family member.

Are they not going to become suspicious if the same person applies from two different countries in such a short time?

According to the Surinder Singh judgement, which was pronounced before Directive 2004/38 came into effect, you do not qualify, because it says you must have been a worker or self-sufficient. A jobseeker is not considered as a worker in this case.

As I say, a new case needs to be brought before the European Court of Justice, so that the rights of returning citizens' apply also for self-sufficient people and students.

[Jaydee]

Although weve been living together for two years we have only been married a couple of months.We could have applied for residency here for my wife but the system is very slow and we could have been waiting for 8 months !! Since Ive been here I obviously have not claimed anything from the Spanish authorities so I have been self sufficient !! This was totally ignored when I made my application.Im of the opinion that because the Family Permit is free,they try to force you to use the settlement visa route,as this way they can relieve you of 650 euros !!

[Richard66]

Not so. Do take a look at the Immigration (EEA) regulations 2006. Your case is not covered.

Your wife should have applied for a residence card. Application is not an option: it is mandatory! What was her status before you married? Illegal? In she had the residence card, theoretically, she would not need an EEA FP and certainly no settlement visa.

You certainly could have taken it to the European Commission.

Have you tried contacting Solvit?

[Jaydee]

Yes my wife was illegal before we married.I explained all this to Worldbridge and they advised me that we were entitled to a family permit.My wife has been to the British Embassy in Kiev this morning to make her application for a settlement visa.They asked her why we applied for a Family Permit from Spain as "these are not meant to be issued to family members of British citizens "Either Worldbridge havent got a clue what they are talking about or the Border Agency are discriminating against their own citizens !!

[Richard66]

No one seems to understand a thing! And these are the people who should be assisting you!

Take a look at this:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm

Family members of United Kingdom nationals
9. —(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an EEA national.

(2) The conditions are that—

(a) the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and

(b) if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national returned to the United Kingdom.

(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

They have successfully removed your wife from the EEA and, as she has no residence card, it will be hard for her to return to Spain. She will need to apply for a family reunion visa, if she is to return to you.

If you both were outside the EEA she would not be entitled to a FP. If you are in Spain and not in the UK I am afraid they might make trouble. Your wife should never have left Spain!

Try calling Solvit in Spain:

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/centres ... .htm#spain

British citizens, together with the Germans, Austrians, Dutch, Irish and belgians are treated less favourably than other EEA citizens. This is called "reverse discriminiation". Spain does not practise this, as it is against the principles of the EU.

[Jaydee]

Im moving back to the UK next week so I just have to hope that she is successful with the settlement visa !! I cant see how they can refuse her but after all the bad advice we received from Worldbridge who knows ?

[Richard66]

Any news?

We have none: our passports were shipped from Rome yeserday by DHL and have not yet arrived.

[Jaydee]

We dont expect to hear anything for at least 10 days.They said it could be three weeks.Hopefully you get good news tomorrow,keep us informed.

[lonelywife]

Hi Richard66,

Can I just ask have you applied for spouse settlement visa from Rome? I am currently waiting for my husband to be issued with a settlement visa from there and am wondering how long it might take - we're on 35 working days today.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Richard66]

I applied for an EEA Family Permit last Tueday and today it arrived. If you consider than we actually forgot to take our marriage certificate when we applied.