Nationality Application form and documentation question

[sfgirl]

I've haven't travelled since I received the British passport. I think you're right that it's not required to enter on the UK one but it's an interesting question as to whether my ILR still exists even though it's stamped on the passport. I think I'm now entitled to "Right of Abode" but to get this I would have to pay £20 and send my passport away for 6-8 weeks.

From what I understand, most people with dual nationality carry both passports and enter as citizens in each country. Obviously this doesn't help the India problem....

[Joseph]

sfgirl,
You're right about being able to get ROA on your foreign passport. The UK is the only country I know that allows this type of arrangement.

If you enter the UK on your foreign passport, in theory you will have some consular protection in the UK by your foreign country. If you use your British passport, you have no such protection from your other country. For that reason, most countries don't allow their citizens to use foreign passports to enter or leave their country.
Joseph

[desperado]

Desperado,
Congratulations on your final step of getting a British Passport. One question for you: After you submitted your non-British passport to the UK Passport Agency, did they cancel your ILR that was stamped in it?
Joseph

Thank you joseph No...that's not the job of passport agency. Their job is to check the application, documents & issue british passport and they don't have anything to do with our old passport or ILR. My old passport is still with me & the ILR. I'm planning to go to indian consulate and submit my indian passport and apply for PIO card. I don't want to risk using both indian and british passport at the same time. My british passport with indian visa should just do fine.

[desperado]

User,
Sorry to hear about your recent delay. But surely you can still travel on your existing passport and ILR while you await your corrected naturalisation certificate? Even in the case of India you don't have to lose your Indian passport until you get the British one.

I wouldn't use my old passport (previous nationality passport) after receiving british citizenship certificate. I don't think it is wise to still use your old passport.

If you don't tell them yet that you naturalised, how would anyone know?

We cannot assume they would know or they won't know. It is wise not to use them unless it is 100% emergency. Even in case of emergency try to get travel document. Otherwise its not worth taking any risks using your old passport.

[desperado]

I've haven't travelled since I received the British passport. I think you're right that it's not required to enter on the UK one but it's an interesting question as to whether my ILR still exists even though it's stamped on the passport. I think I'm now entitled to "Right of Abode" but to get this I would have to pay £20 and send my passport away for 6-8 weeks.

From what I understand, most people with dual nationality carry both passports and enter as citizens in each country. Obviously this doesn't help the India problem....

sfgirl,
You're right about being able to get ROA on your foreign passport. The UK is the only country I know that allows this type of arrangement.

If you enter the UK on your foreign passport, in theory you will have some consular protection in the UK by your foreign country. If you use your British passport, you have no such protection from your other country. For that reason, most countries don't allow their citizens to use foreign passports to enter or leave their country.
Joseph

I'm confused now... In case of indian passport, I have to surrender it as I'm no longer an indian citizen ever since I got my british passport. I have to get a visa to visit india. For other nationals say a US national who got british citizenship...they have to show both the passport to the passport control at airport. That's what I think. That's the US immigration rule. Could someone correct me...if I'm wrong please.

[sfgirl]

I'm a US citizen who is now a dual national - British as well. The US requires that a US citizen enters and leaves the country on a US passport, but as Joseph said, the UK does not.

Hence, when travelling to the US I must carry my US passport and the easiest thing to do is book my flights with the US passport, leave the UK on it, and enter the US on it. On my return, I will show my US passport at checkin with the intention of showing my British one on arrival in the UK. From what I understand, this is what most US/UK dual nationals do.

The only catch will be if US checkin asks me about right to remain in the UK. This happened to me in December and I pointed out my ILR. Now, I guess, I will produce the UK passport but tell them that I'm leaving on the US one in order to comply with US regulations.

When I travel in the EU I will only carry the British passport.

[Joseph]

desperado
My comment regarding not informing the other country about the acquisition of British citizenship was only for User during the 5+ week period when he was waiting for his British passport. I wasn't suggesting that he conceal the fact after that time.

Thanks for the feedback on the UK Passport Agency. Since they ask for the passport from first-time applicants and they are part of the Home Office, I would have thought they or somebody else would cancel the ILR (especially since original passports are not required to be submitted for naturalisation applicants). But I guess that's not the case, unlike other countries like the US where you have to relinquish your green card when you naturalise. It just seems rather lax on the part of the Home Office that they don't do this, but that's good, it makes life more flexible for most of us.
I was especially curious because I will be doing the same process in the next few months and my other country doesn't have a problem with dual nationality.

sfgirl
Sometimes the easiest way is to just show both passports when you check in. That reduces their questions asked most of the time.

Joseph

[sfgirl]

desperado

Thanks for the feedback on the UK Passport Agency. Since they ask for the passport from first-time applicants and they are part of the Home Office, I would have thought they or somebody else would cancel the ILR (especially since original passports are not required to be submitted for naturalisation applicants). But I guess that's not the case, unlike other countries like the US where you have to relinquish your green card when you naturalise. It just seems rather lax on the part of the Home Office that they don't do this, but that's good, it makes life more flexible for most of us.
I was especially curious because I will be doing the same process in the next few months and my other country doesn't have a problem with dual nationality.

Joseph

Joseph, I don't think the ILR is still valid even though it hasn't been cancelled on your passport. I've just found the "Some information for British Nationals" that came with my certificate and it says: "As a British Citizen, you now have a right of abode in the United Kingdon and are no longer subject to any form of immigration control.... This means that your previous indefinite leave to enter/remain...no longer applies to you. If you wish to travel on a non-British passport, it must be endorsed to show that you have the right of abode..."

That seems very clear. ILR is cancelled and either get the passport or the ROA. (Sorry, I should have checked this yesterday.)

[Joseph]

Sfgirl,
Thanks very much for that information. We wouldn't know these subtle details unless people like you (who have actually obtained the certificate) tell us!
Joseph

[User]

Yup! That is correct. So that puts me nowhere, until the corrected naturalisation certificate is sent back to me and i apply for my British passport. Its been about 10+ days now since i had sent it off for correction and i am yet to hear from them.

Its all really frustrating - especially considering that its HO's mistake and I have to wait a ridiculous time lag to get it corrected.

Hopefully i will get back my corrected certificate soon.

regards.

Ta!

[Joseph]

User,

For what it's worth, I have a friend who attended her ceremony and received her naturalisation certificate a few months ago just before she was going on a two-month holiday. Because of the short time frame before she left on holiday, she delayed applying for the British passport until after her return.

She left and returned on the foreign passport without problems (including with the ILR). So, if you really need to travel, I don't think you need to wait. Like I said before, India (or any other country) is not going to know about your naturalisation, especially since you have not even applied for a British passport. Also you can't turn in your Indian passport to India until you present it to the UKPA, right?

Look at it this way. Even with this added waiting period your getting naturalisation is faster than the advertised 6+ months!

Joseph

[User]

Hi Joseph,

"Look at it this way. Even with this added waiting period your getting naturalisation is faster than the advertised 6+ months!"

I agree totally to your comment .

But think about it - in that case atleast i would not have lost my native citizenship as yet, since they would be just processing the british citizenship application for 6+ months - I would have used the Checking service and would have had my earlier citizenship passport / citizenship intact, so i would be free to travel on my old passport as i wish and also let my british citizenship application get processed happily.

In the current case, i have already lost my native citizenship and HO is now delaying me in getting the British travel document - this is the frustrating part. The HO has just left me with no travel document, whatsoever. I agree its not their problem, because they are more than happy to let me have a dual citizenship, but unfortunately my native country does not allow it.

regards.

Ta!

[Joseph]

User
I see your point, but I personally see it a little differently.

The key question is whether your country (I recall it is India, right?) strips your nationality when you get the certificate (i.e. take the oath) or when you get a British passport. I don't think the previous board discussions have really resolved this issue. I may be mistaken but I recall that the Hinduja brothers were prosecuted in India as Indian citizens (without British consular protection) even after they got British citizenship, so I think they had returned to India to face the charges on Indian passports. What I think is clear is that you are still a citizen until your government is aware (either from you or the UK Government) that you have taken British Citizenship. I think it is unlikely that the Home Office will notify your government, so it is up to you to make that voluntary notification. Obviously you need to do this, but the question is when do you do it? I think it should only be done when the process (British citizenship and passport) is properly finished.

I am already a citizen of 2 countries that allow dual nationality and will hopefully be a tri-national soon with British Citizenship. Besause of this I will admit to having a personal bias against countries that don't allow dual nationality. My personal view (which I don't expect anyone to share) is that if your country has such a negative attitude toward citizens who take other nationalities, you don't owe them notification yet, especially when it is so inconvenient for you. Basically, they are going to execute you by stripping you of your passport; why not delay the execution a few weeks?

But that's my personal view and not necessarily anybody else's; if you are planning to travel to your home country, for example, and you are concerned that this will hurt your chances of getting visas etc. in the future, of course, don't push the issue and bite the bullet.

Joseph

[Kayalami]

The loss of Indian nationality is automatic upon acquisition of a second citizenship i.e. there is no basis on having a formal notification for it to take effect. This condition if I recall correctly even applies to minors as of 2004 (not sure of the month). IMHO messing around with travel patterns (especially where such can be delayed) where the concept of dual nationality is an issue is risky business and one should be prepared to face applicable consequences vis a vis the relevant judicial system. On the matter of the afore mentioned legal case it may be a matter of an extradition policy in effect rather than solely nationality issues.

[User]

Well... so it's like i said earlier. No other go - but to bite the bullet, stop even thinking about travels and that is it, until the HO (Nationality group) thinks they have some time to sort out my issue (their ridiculous mistake)

I can't belive they can make such silly mistakes, when creating naturalisation documents - the funny thing is they cannot go wrong at all - their computer does have all the information about me, right from the day i landed in the UK, until the day i submitted my british citizenship application. Still they end up making spelling mistakes, especially when they know their system of correcting their own mistakes is filled up with annoying delays.

They should be a little more careful when issuing documents like these.

Anyway... Hopefully i will get it soon.

regards.

Ta!

[Joseph]

Kayalami
So technically User should turn in the newly-invalid Indian passport to the Indian High Commission within minutes of attending the citizenship ceremony.

But that way he couldn't apply for a British passport because the foreign passport needs to be submitted for a few weeks in support of the British passport application. It just seems so unreasonable! My personal opinion still stands!

User, In view of these draconian requirements, I agree that you should sit tight and wait. I'm just voicing my point of view here!

Joseph

[Kayalami]

It would be prudent to surrender applicable passport facilities upon loss of relevant citizenship as soon as possible. Travel on said documentation pursuant to loss of citizenship as some have advocated is a gross misrepresentation (indeed fraud) of national status. I am of the opinion that such should be dealt with to the fullest extent allowable by law to include a custodial sentence. It may be of interest to know that misrepresentation of US citizenship to a Port of Entry Official (CBP) results in a lifetime ban from entry into the US. AFAIK such is exempt from Judicial review. You may note this to be the reason why entrants to the US often have the 1st question as "Of what country are you a citizen of?"

[John]

Kayalami, I don't disagree with you that the Indian passport should not be used for international travel.

However I think that the Indian passport should not be surrendered before an application is made for the British passport, given that the UK Passport Agency clearly want to see that passport when dealing with the initial British passport application from someone just naturalised or registered as British.

That is, not having the Indian passport available when that British passport application is made could cause problems or at least delays.

[Kayalami]

With respect my comments on the surrender timeframe are to include an appropriate timeline for a British Passport application. IMHO the relevant authorities would not have an issue with this.

[User]

Hi all,

I called up the HO nationality group team today. They said the certificate and my documentation has been passed on to the case worker who will correct the certificate. He said it could take a couple of weeks more to get my certificate done, because there are too many processes involved in this correction:

1. The case worker picking up my certificate for read-up and check with the documentary proof i have sent

2. Once he is satified with their mistake, he will then forward it to a different department which will print the new certificate and send it out to another dept. which will post the document to me.

He said, all these can take abour 5-6 weeks from now.

I really really wish there was some premium service available to sort out correction of certificates, so that i could apply for my britsh passport.

I wouldn't have had any problem paying any premium fees even if the mistake was HO's. The main relief would be i could at least apply for my passport soon.

But anyway, they don't have such a service... so just have to bite the bullet for weeks and weeks to come!


regards.

Ta!

[sfgirl]

It may be of interest to know that misrepresentation of US citizenship to a Port of Entry Official (CBP) results in a lifetime ban from entry into the US. AFAIK such is exempt from Judicial review. You may note this to be the reason why entrants to the US often have the 1st question as "Of what country are you a citizen of?"

So, if you're a dual US - UK citizen and are asked this question, may you answer US or must you answer US and UK?

[Kayalami]

Kayalami wrote:
It may be of interest to know that misrepresentation of US citizenship to a Port of Entry Official (CBP) results in a lifetime ban from entry into the US. AFAIK such is exempt from Judicial review. You may note this to be the reason why entrants to the US often have the 1st question as "Of what country are you a citizen of?"


So, if you're a dual US - UK citizen and are asked this question, may you answer US or must you answer US and UK?

Under US law an Immigration Inspector at a port of entry can accept an oral declaration of US citizenship. My comment refers to those who misrepresent themselves as US citizens when they are clearly not to facilitate their entry into the US. Dual nationals where one of the status is that of US citizen are thus by definition not misrepresenting such unless USC status was correctly renounced pursuant to this being a requirement of the other nationality. If you are a USC you must present yourself as a USC at a Port of Entry and where travel is outside the Western Hemisphere produce a US passport. The same US passport requirement applies to exiting the US where travel is again outside the WH.

[sfgirl]

Wow! thanks

[User]

Hi All,

Just to keep you all updated on my naturalisation certificate correction thingy...

I called up to HO Nationality group and they said they have my Naturalisation certificate with a case worker now. He said it could now take about 8 - 9 weeks to correct the certificate (a "one alphabet" correction in my "place of brith") . So i should hear from them around end of September.

Its just been 3+ weeks as of now. So I guess its another 6 weeks or so waiting time.

Ta!