WP > ILR > BC

[sudeep_n]

Hi,

I was on WP in the UK from Jan 99 to Dec 02. I got ILR in Jan 03. I now wish to apply for BC -

couple of issues - how can I deal with them. Do I need a lawyer to present my case.

a) I have a net salary - means I get paid of net of taxes, my xompany pays taxes on my behalf, I dont get any P60 forms etc. However, my company has given me letter (signed on the letterhead) that all applicable taxes have been paid by them. On my insistence they have given me P60s for two years as well. However, it does not mention my NI number.

I have not applied for BC till date for the same reason. However, now that the immigration rules becoming difficult by day and with the new test being announced I thought I should better take up BC immediately.

How can I approach this ? Is there any other case like this or is this common ?

b) I have a masters degree in Engg from a well known Uni in a non-native English speaking country. Can I submit the degree certificate of the same. It would be very difficult to get a letter stating that English was the language of the course as there is noone in my native country who could do it for me. Are there any approved courses / Unis by the HO for this purpose for English Languge proof.

I am planning to send a certified copy of my passport with my application as I may need my passport for travel. IND website says it takes now more than 6 months to process BC applications.

[John]

Using your lettering :-

1. When applying for naturalisation you do not need to provide any proof of earnings, but you do have to enter the name and address of your employer and also your tax reference. As you have a P60 that will hopefully show the tax reference allocated to your employer's PAYE scheme, otherwise ask your payroll department for details.
2. "I have a masters degree in Engg" ... excuse my ignorance ... Engg? Is that English? Engineering? If it is English then I don't think you will have a problem. Is Engineering then which language was the course conducted in? If English then surely you can get some sort of document from the university saying that? If not conducted in English then your Degree Certificate is of no use to you ... for the purpose of passing the English Test. You might consider going to a Notary to certify your standard of English, or to a language college to certify your English is at least ESOL Entry 3 level.

Your disclosed details do not include your location, which is your right. However if you live in or near one of the six pilot areas for the Nationality Checking Service then you might consider using that service. Not only will it cut out the expense of getting a certified copy of your passport, but also that checking service will take their own copy and hand your passport straight back to you.

[vin123]

On my insistence they have given me P60s for two years as well. However, it does not mention my NI number.

You mean the NI number is not printed in P60 ?. I'm assuming you have an NI number, If that is the case, then you have to contact Inland Revenue office (ASAP) and ask them to add your NI details to your tax records. Have you given your NI number to your employer? Usually, your employer should have already added that long before, if they had payed your taxes all these 5 years!
This is very important, otherwise your naturalization process will simply get delayed

I have a net salary - means I get paid of net of taxes, my xompany pays taxes on my behalf, I dont get any P60 forms etc.

Everyone, who gets paid a salary, gets it after a good scoop of tax and NI from it. P60 is nothing but a year end statement of the consolidated tax and NI paid by your employer on behalf of you through 'PAYE'. Your employer has to keep a record of these taxes paid on behalf of you and the Inland Revenues computer system can indentify the same using two thing
- Employers tax reference no (usually shown on the payslip )
- you surname/date of birth.

[John]

Everyone, who gets paid a salary, gets it after a good scoop of tax and NI from it.

That is right but that does not stop people entering into a net pay arrangement if they want. For example if the employer and the employee agree to say £30000 pa net salary, after all deductions, that person will get a salary payment of exactly £2500 each month.

However a calculation needs to be made of the gross equivalent of that ... what gross salary will leave exactly that net salary after deduction of NIC and income tax? Hopefully the P60 correctly shows those details ... how much gross salary ... how much NIC ... how much income tax?

[sudeep_n]

This is very important, otherwise your naturalization process will simply get delayed

Hi Vin,

Why wouldit get delayed. I did not understand exactly.If my name / date of birth and employer ref can give my tax details anyway.

And secondly it would get delayed but wouldn't be rejected - correct ?

[sudeep_n]

Hi Vin,

Why would it get delayed. I did not understand exactly.If my name / date of birth and employer ref can give my tax details anyway.

And secondly it would get delayed but wouldn't be rejected - correct ?

Another question I have is while giving details of stay in the UK - do I also have to write hotels if I stayed for 5 days while moving house from one place to another etc.

[John]

sudeep_n, I agree, no reason why the application would be delayed if it is the case that all information requested by the application form has been provided.

Staying in hotel? You only need to enter your normal residential address so I don't think you need to enter a temporary hotel address. If that causes a gap in the dates entered at Q4.11 then you might explain that in the "white space" on page 13 of the form ... Q4.11. Moved out of (old address) on (date) and moved into (new address) on (date). Between those two dates I stayed in a hotel .... or something like that.

Recently I asked about "Engg". What is that? English? Engineering?

[sudeep_n]

Thank John. It is engineering.

[John]

OK, that engineering course, was it conducted in English? If so can you get confirmation from the university/college that that was the case?

If not, how are you going to deal with the English language requirement?

[Joseph]

sudeep_n
I am very concerned about companies (typically "South Asian owned" software companies) that pay employees "net" salary and pocket the difference without depositing tax payments. Hopefully this is not the case with your employer.

Unless I am totally mistaken, the rules are clear; you should have applied for a NI number when you started work, and your employer should have required a NI number from you (at least after the first few months):

Conditions for applying for a National Insurance number

If you do not already have a National Insurance number you must apply for one as soon as you start work or you (or in some cases, your partner) claims benefit.
You must be 16 or over and resident in the UK.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/faqs/ynino.htm#62

The tax payments and NI contributions should have been credited to your NI account. In the case of the NI contributions, these would be to your long-term benefit (retirement, pension etc). But since you don't appear to have a NI number, you will not get this benefit.

Worse than that, if it turns out that NI and taxes were not paid on your behalf and credited to your tax and NI accounts, this will have an impact on your nationality application. Even if your employer is, in effect, stealing from you and the government, the payment of tax is ultimately the taxpayer's responsibility.

Hopefully you can get some clarity on this before you file the application.

Joseph

[John]

Joseph, a couple of points. Firstly if any employer is doing as you describe then that is clearly tax fraud and the employer, when subjected to a PAYE audit, could well find that a very painful process.

Secondly, as regards the impact upon any naturalisation application, the applicant is not needing to give any pay and tax figures when applying for naturalisation. The application form asks for details of their employer, their occupation and their tax reference in Section 4, and also their NINO at Q1.9. IND could well then check out that information. I suspect that they have direct access to the HMRC computer system. The declaration that the applicant signs on page 14 of the form AN(NEW) specifically authorises IND to check the tax records.

The point is that it will not always be clear to IND or to HMRC when there has been tax fraud. Absolutely no tax or NIC being paid over by the employer might raise severe suspicions, but if at least something is paid then the fact that tax fraud might have been committed will not necessarily be immediately obvious.

[Joseph]

John
My point is that working 5 years without a NI number is already a violation of the law. The AN form asks for the NI number on page 1, and if one is not provided it should raise an alarm. Although it is not well publicized, the onus is on the taxpayer to get one when he starts work. Unlike British citizens, who normally get the NINO automatically when they turn 16, a new foreign taxpayer is clearly required to go to DWP for an identity interview. Of course, the employer is required to ask for a NINO (or search for one, or provide documents to facilitate the identity interview) when they bring on a new employee.

I don't believe that taxes and NI contributions (which are equally and separately required by law) can be properly credited to a person without a NINO. So if money is being withheld from the employee, it begs the question, where did it go? Even if the employer errs (or steals), the employee is still responsible for his Income Tax and National Insurance affairs.

But in any case, without a NINO, it will be difficult if not impossible for the employee to demonstrate to the Home Office that PAYE has properly been done. The NINO will probably be the first thing they put into the computer to verify the tax records.

Joseph

[John]

Joseph, not sure the OP does not have a NINO. In the opening message it says :-

However, it does not mention my NI number.

-: which leads me to believe, I accept possibly wrongly, that the OP has a NINO but it is not quoted on the P60.

I don't believe that taxes and NI contributions (which are equally and separately required by law) can be properly credited to a person without a NINO.

Yes and no. The taxes can be credited, but the NIC cannot be properly credited to a person's National Insurance Account unless the NINO is quoted.

But in any case, without a NINO, it will be difficult if not impossible for the employee to demonstrate to the Home Office that PAYE has properly been done.

Again the lack of NINO will probably not cause a problem getting the income tax credited to the correct account. After all the NINO is only one of the references used by HMRC to identify an employee.

Don't don't me wrong, I am certainly not dismissing your fears. Unfortunately there are all sorts of people out there trying to defraud the tax authorities. Suspect that they may not know that accountants and tax advisors are now covered my Money Laundering legislation and that such legislation is drafted in very wide terms, including a suspicion that the person is stealing money from anyone else. That is, if an accountant or tax advisor suspects a client is defrauding HMRC then they need to file a report about that. Not only that they must not tell their client that such a report has been filed, and indeed it would be a criminal offence to "tip off" the client. And not filing a report when there are reasonable grounds for suspecting a crime has been committed is also a criminal offence.

Hopefully the OP's employer is committing no crime at all.

[davidm]

John
My point is that working 5 years without a NI number is already a violation of the law. The AN form asks for the NI number on page 1, and if one is not provided it should raise an alarm. Although it is not well publicized, the onus is on the taxpayer to get one when he starts work. Unlike British citizens, who normally get the NINO automatically when they turn 16, a new foreign taxpayer is clearly required to go to DWP for an identity interview. Of course, the employer is required to ask for a NINO (or search for one, or provide documents to facilitate the identity interview) when they bring on a new employee.

I don't believe that taxes and NI contributions (which are equally and separately required by law) can be properly credited to a person without a NINO. So if money is being withheld from the employee, it begs the question, where did it go? Even if the employer errs (or steals), the employee is still responsible for his Income Tax and National Insurance affairs.

But in any case, without a NINO, it will be difficult if not impossible for the employee to demonstrate to the Home Office that PAYE has properly been done. The NINO will probably be the first thing they put into the computer to verify the tax records.

Joseph

Joseph,
I was in a similar situation. When I came to the UK on a work permit, my employer was deducting tax and NIC on a temporary NINO. I doscovered this was a temporary NINO six months before naturalisation and applied for a NINO at DWP. All my tax and NI contributions were shown on the letter I got from Inland revenue which gave me a letter stating that I have made tax and NI contributions for the past 5 years.
My wife, on the other hand, was an expat- her salary was being paid net of taxes in the UK and her employer was taking care of contributions. Since her NI category was "X" (expat), DWP initially refused to give her an NI number saying expats do not need an NI number. However, after lots of convincing, she got an NI number and all her tax contributions (made by her employer on behalf of her as an expat employee. She does not pay NI contributions as she is expat and is not paid in the UK for NI purposes) reflected on the letter we got for her. Even though she did not have an NI number (not even a temporary one- the NI number field on her payslip is blank), revenue could link all the payments made on her behalf to her NI number once she got it.
So I had a temporary NI number for 4 years, my wife had none for almost 5 years- still we did not have any problems in getting naturalised. Of course, we got proper NI numbers by the time we applied.

[bhavna]

hello david,

how much time it took for you to get the naturalisation approved?

Cheers

[sudeep_n]

Do the HO (Naturalisation team) contact the employer for any purpose after one applies for Naturalisation ?

[Joseph]

They can but they probably will not normally contact the employer. More likely they will contact the employer's tax office to confirm that you are on PAYE.
If your National Insurance and PAYE tax contributions are not in order, they may then contact the employer, however.
Joseph