non EEA family member of EEA citizen visa to Ireland from UK

[freon21]

Hello there
I am a EEA citizen residing in the uk .
My husband is a non EEA national we have bee married 1 year.
We applied for his RC but it is taking ages and we would like to travel to Ireland.
Unfortunately his uk Family permit is expired now.
Can we still apply for a visa to ireland in the UK ?
I checked the Irish embassy in London web site but there was no reference at all to family members of EU citizens.Does that mean that Ireland is not applying EU directives (in particular 2004/38c)?Do we have to use their form with all those questions?
The UK has the Family permit the other EU countries have the shenghen form without the need to answer the stared questions and it is free .
At last will they even consider the application knowing that my husband has only the COA (certificate of application for a RC) as immigration status.
Any advise welcome.
Thanks

[Ben]

Hi Freon,

Sorry for such a short reply, just about to go to bed.

Have a look at these links:
http://www.embassyofireland.co.uk/home/ ... x?id=49659
http://www.embassyofireland.co.uk/uploa ... 200109.pdf

Hope that helps. Goodnight!

[freon21]

Thanks Benifa for the links.
It looks like that my husband won't get the visa as they require the residence stamp in the passport wich he does not have yet .We only have an expired uk family permit.
It looks like ECJ judgement on Metock case is being ignored by Irish authorities .
A NON-COMMUNITY SPOUSE OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNION CAN MOVE AND RESIDE WITH THAT CITIZEN IN THE UNION WITHOUT HAVING PREVIOUSLY BEEN LAWFULLY RESIDENT IN A MEMBER STATE.
Even if It has been here:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf
I guess we will have to wait some 8/12 months before being able to travel together.Freedom of movement???where?

[Ben]

Hi freon21,

Meteck is being adhered to in Ireland. Things have vastly improved here in recent times (though there is still work to do).

Possibly though, the embassy's website has not been updated. Apply for the visa, it cannot be refused, so long as your spouse meets the criteria.

Alternatively, enter Northern Ireland from Britain and cross to Ireland over land. So long as you have both of your passports and your marriage certificate, your entry and residence in Ireland is lawful.

[acme4242]

It seems the Irish Consulate are unclear in their requirements.

This list of supporting documents should ONLY apply if the non-EU family
member intends to travel alone, and leave the main EU member
back at home.

PLEASE NOTE
If you are travelling to Ireland without your EU spouse/partner
or your trip is not for the purpose of visiting
an EU spouse/partner who is residing in Ireland,
you are required to provide the necessary documents
as listed in the Visit Visa Checklist.

To enjoy EU family rights (2004/38) you must accompany or join the
EU citizen in Ireland in which case, the only supporting document
required is a valid marriage cert.
NOTE: they are not even allowed to request airline or ferry tickets.
by law, even though it is listed on the INIS website.
And as you correctly state, since Metock ruling, the nonsense about prior
residence in another EU state is also off limits.

To know your rights read
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/c ... ex_en.html
also relevant reading about similar problems with this Irish Consulate in London, with an mild apology from
Ambassador Bobby McDonagh
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/registre/ ... 991_EN.pdf

The Irish Permanent Representation replied by letter of 13 April 2006 in
which they acknowledged the problems Mr R.D. and his spouse encountered
while travelling to Ireland and they conceded that the requirements did
indeed violate Community legislation.

They also informed that for the past twelve months, the requirements for
third country family members accompanying a Union citizen travelling to
Ireland are as follows – passports of the applicant and Union citizen, the
original marriage certificate and three photographs. Moreover, all Irish
Embassies and Consulates have been reminded of these requirements.

[Ben]

also relevant reading about similar problems with this Irish Consulate in London, with an mild apology from
Ambassador Bobby McDonagh
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/registre/ ... 991_EN.pdf

Excellent find, Acme!

[alooma]

helo freon21,i think benfica is right about the update of their website and i am 90% sure that the Irish authorities would apply the metock case to Ur situation.my friend has been illegal in the UK for almost 4yrs, but got married to a British citizen last year,they went to apply for a visa to Spain in January,his application was refused,reason(he dose not have a UK resident permit as stated on their website).

he then contacted SOLVIT (http://ec.europa.eu/solvit) and the latter contacted the Spanish authorities who then apologise for their misconduct,and then issued my friend with a 3months visa in his( new passport ) last week.

so I would advice u apply as for ur visa as benfica advice earlier.

Good luck.

[freon21]

Thanks all of you for your clear replies.
Clearly you gave me hope and we will apply next week nothing to lose anyway.
The is a question on the online application:
do you have permission to return to the uk?should we answer yes or no?knowing that my husband's family permit has expired?
Thanks again

[Ben]

do you have permission to return to the uk?should we answer yes or no?knowing that my husband's family permit has expired?

Yes. EU law permits you.

[freon21]

Thanks Benifa you are a star.
I will keep u updated cheers.

[freon21]

we applied today for the visa online and hope to submit the docs on tuesdy at the london embassy.
we decided not to book the ferry tickets for the trip yet as We are not sure to get the visa .
Hope that it won't get refused for that or else.
we answered all the questions even my husband's employer's details althought I think it is totally irrelevant.
I will keep you updated.

[ca.funke]

In this regard I lodged a complaint against Ireland with the EU. (One of my many complaints)

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 807#193807

Regards, Christian

[acme4242]

These is also case law from the ECJ, where the court already clarified
how the directives should be interpreted. QED

Case Law from the ECJ
=====================
see Case C-157/03 Commission vs Kingdom of Spain
in relation to Visa application procedures for
third country family members.

1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.

31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"

[ca.funke]

Thanks, acme, your links are really well-worth reading!!

[acme4242]

More reading !!
Correspondence between Irish Authorities and the EU commission
If there is a better website to host these documents let me know.

http://www.scribd.com/full/13048194?acc ... dwbuefnvp9
reply from Irish perm
This reply from Bobby is littered with legal errors, and I'm not an expert.

http://www.scribd.com/full/13048225?acc ... 2ozba1royg
letter to Irish perm

http://www.scribd.com/full/13048234?acc ... 0hd6s27llg
original Petition 007/2005

Petition 0007/2005, by Frank Semmig (German) on the complicated
procedures for travel to Ireland by non-EU citizens with residence
permits in Great Britain and Germany


1. Summary of petition
The petitioner, who is German, lives with his Russian wife in
Great Britain, where both have domicile status. His wife also
has a German residence permit. He complains at the difficulties
his wife faces in travelling to Ireland when she wants to accompany
him on long business trips, since each time she has to apply for an
individual visa in London and collect it from there. The petitioner
also feels that his freedom of movement is restricted, as for each of
his wife's visa applications he has to declare his personal and financial
circumstances and give details of his travel plans and these are carefully
checked

Legal assessment
Conditions and time frames for issuing visas
In order to issue a visa to the wife of the petitioner, who wishes to
accompany her husband on a trip to Ireland in the context of their right
to free movement, the Irish authorities may only ask her for her valid
passport or identity card and proof of her relationship to him. The
directives applicable to the free movement of persons, and in particular
Directive 73/148/EEC2 applicable to those providing and those receiving
services, stipulate that the Member States must 'afford every facility'
to family members of EU citizens for obtaining any necessary visas.
The Member States are not allowed to subject people to other requirements or
to demand other documents or information from beneficiaries of Community law
who apply for a visa to enter their territory. It is not in keeping with
Community law to demand that EU citizens give detailed information on
personal data, or on their travel plans or hotel reservations.

[acme4242]

It looks like ECJ judgement on Metock case is being ignored by Irish authorities .
A NON-COMMUNITY SPOUSE OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNION CAN MOVE AND RESIDE WITH THAT CITIZEN IN THE UNION WITHOUT HAVING PREVIOUSLY BEEN LAWFULLY RESIDENT IN A MEMBER STATE.
Even if It has been here:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf

SI 656 of 2006 is amended (due to Metock) with SI 310 of 2008

The Regulations now apply to EU citizen family members without the
earlier exclusion clauses of EU residency etc.
Therefore, if I am correct ?, according to the earlier correspondence
between Irish Authorities and the EU commission I think your spouse
should be entitled to Multi Journey "D" visa, regardless if its only a
visit or a migration.
But I don't know the rules concerning how long the visa should last.
And under law, the only supporting document requirement is a valid marriage cert.

If I am wrong, can someone please clarify and help. as I am not an expert.

[freon21]

It looks like ECJ judgement on Metock case is being ignored by Irish authorities .
A NON-COMMUNITY SPOUSE OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNION CAN MOVE AND RESIDE WITH THAT CITIZEN IN THE UNION WITHOUT HAVING PREVIOUSLY BEEN LAWFULLY RESIDENT IN A MEMBER STATE.
Even if It has been here:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf

SI 656 of 2006 is amended (due to Metock) with SI 310 of 2008

The Regulations now apply to EU citizen family members without the
earlier exclusion clauses of EU residency etc.
Therefore, if I am correct ?, according to the earlier correspondence
between Irish Authorities and the EU commission I think your spouse
should be entitled to Multi Journey "D" visa, regardless if its only a
visit or a migration.
But I don't know the rules concerning how long the visa should last.
And under law, the only supporting document requirement is a valid marriage cert.

If I am wrong, can someone please clarify and help. as I am not an expert.

This is what I thought but:
The Irish embassy in london is not aware of anything.
My husband went yesterday to lodge the application armed with all relevant laws in a folder.
They initialy refused to take the application for lack of resident permit in uk (my husband has a certicate of application from home office 1 year old)
At first they would not believe that the application for residence card was still under consideration my husband asked to check ukba website.
Then they said they need to see RC .My spouse asked then to speak to supervisor.
After 1 hour talking they accepted to take application but said it has to be refered to dublin for decision and do expect a refusal wich is fine as long that we get it written and official.
I could not believe the thing she said to my spouse:
- visa officer:Why don't u go back to ur country and apply from there ?
-Husband: I live and work here, my family is here why should I?.
_visa officer:how can u return to the uk?
-my husband:I will apply fo a Family Permit at the uk embassy.Oh ! now that u are asking I may stay for good after 3 month if I find a job (treaty right with my wife)
- visa officer:So this is the reason?u trying to use us? people are being made redundant there.
-my husband: using you?just exercising EEA treaty right and It was just a point I made I do not intend to stay I have a good job here and secure.
-visa officer:the reason is you are trying this ruling (metock) why don't u wait the Ho decision for ur PR?you might get a refusal?
- my husband: I am just exercising a right even if I get a refusal for my PR it does not make me less spouse of an EEA citizen with rights ,the decision of the HO is irrelevant for the application I am making Visa to enter Ireland with my EEA spouse and kids.

and so on until the visa officer agreed to take the application and refer it to dublin.
Lets wait the decision now.

[Ben]

Thanks for the update, freon21.

Regardless of what the staff member at the Irish embassy in London said, if it's been sent to Dublin, I think you can relax. So long as you have proven your identity and your relationship, the DoJ may not refuse to issue a visa, except in certain cases relating to disease / public security.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

freon21,

Very good of your spouse to push this through! And excellent for him to go to the embassy like that and push gentling but firmly. I owe him a beer!

The visa office of the Irish embassy in London is a amazing place. They are definitely aware of the law, but seem to want to just ignore it. Some of the people there have a real attitude problem. Good news that some of them are being made redundant!

Did your husband provide any of the (ignorantly) “requiredâ€

[freon21]

Hi directive 2004
Yes,we finally booked ticket on irish ferries for the whole family as we want to go by car.
Funnily enough the visa officer told my husband that we should not have booked before getting the visa.She did not even know that it was their own requirement when my husband showed her a copy of the docs requirement printed from their web site stating that proof of travelling with the EEA spouse was a condition absolute.
My spouse replied that he hoped that he will get his visa before the booked date as he would want to be refunded by the embassy otherwise

[freon21]

The visa for Ireland has been refused.

Reasons:
aplicant has been residing in uk illegaly for a number of years
+no address of stay provided.

Very sad

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You should contact Solvit immediately for their help. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

I would also contact the treaty rights section of the Irish DFA. Make it clear to them that you will contact the European Comission if this is not cleared up quickly and completely. Be clear that this is a family member of an EU citizen.

[acme4242]

You should contact Solvit immediately for their help. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

I would also contact the treaty rights section of the Irish DFA. Make it clear to them that you will contact the European Comission if this is not cleared up quickly and completely. Be clear that this is a family member of an EU citizen.

Hi Directive/2004/38/EC
http://europa.eu.int/solvit/
says "The address you requested is obsolete"

Hi freon21
Did the refusal letter come from Dublin ? This is bloody unbelievable !
what clowns are working there.
anyway, do as Directive/2004/38/EC says.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You can also travel, even if you do not have the proper visa. You need to go prepared but they most likely will let you in eventually. (More details available on request)

Current address for solvit is http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/

[freon21]

Hi there all
The refusal letter came from the embassy in london .For me it has not been sent to Dublin at all.
What absurd grounds of refusal they have never heard of directive 2004/38 to me.In wich continent is Ireland located?or what planet are those guys from??
AMBASAID NAhEIREANN, LONDON

EMBASSY OF IRELAND, LONDON PASSPORT & VISA OFFICE 27/04/2009
MONTPELIER HOUSE, 106BROMPTONROAD,
KNIGHTSBRIDGE,
LONDON SW31JJ
Passport Office Queries: 0207 225 7700 Visa Office Queries: 0906 661 0197
Fax: 0207 225 7777 www.embassyofireland.co.uk
Visa Application Ref No:

Dear Sir

I regret to inform you that your application for an Irish Visa has been refused by the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (really?) for the following reasons:

ID:- Application form incomplete
No details have been provided as to where you will be staying during your visit to Ireland(provided ferry tickets as required in web site(fare lost £200 100% cancellation fee .wrote in application will book hotel when visa granted
IH> Immigration history of applicant
While you state you have been in the UK for over nine years it would appear that for a number of years you are here illegally.Not true we provided copy of the previous passport with EEA residence card 5 years from his previous marriage waiting for confirmation of PR from HO.and even if he was illegal before marrying me it is irrelevant.OC> Observe the conditions of the visa - the visa sought is for a specific purpose and duration:
- the applicant has not satisfied the visa officer that such conditions would be observed.My husband told her that if he liked Ireland we may decide to stay (it was a joke only)even so what?after 3 months we can apply for a residence card if we were mad enough to want to stay.

This decision can be appealed within 2 months of the date of this letter. An appeal must be submitted in writing, fully addressing all the reasons for refusal to the Visa Appeals Officer to the address shown.
Appeals received by email or fax will not be processed. You bet we gonna appeal even if we receive the PR in the next weeks.They will have to refund our lost ticket.All additional supporting documents should be submitted with your appeal. If you require any original documents returned to you, please also include a photocopy of any such document.

Please quote your Visa Reference Number on your appeal.
Yours sincerely,

Visa Section London

ps: bold is mine