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1923 birth / Irish citizenship question

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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y2richie
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1923 birth / Irish citizenship question

Post by y2richie » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:35 am

I have a question about Irish citizenship. I hope you can help.

I was born in England but I want to obtain Irish citizenship and an Irish passport.

My gran was born in Northern Ireland in 1923. I am of the understanding that the year of partition was 1922. So am I out by a year? Or is there a chance that she might have had her birth registered with the Free State as well?

How likely is it that her birth is registered with both governments? Is the easiest and cheapest way to find out by paying for her birth certificate at the Dublin GRO? (I have her Northern Ireland birth certificate). If they come back with 'does not exist' then I know I need to explore other avenues. I plan on moving to Galway but wanted to try this route first.

Someone has said to me that up until about ten years ago, it was written in the Irish constitution for a 32 county Republic so it should be possible that I can claim for Irish citizenship based on my grandma born in 1923. I have never thought this possible until now and need to verify my facts.

Thank you for your help.

Ben
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Post by Ben » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:44 am

Citizenship through descent from Irish grandparents wrote:If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.

If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation.

Since 1 July 1986, a person registered in the Foreign Births Entry Book after 1986 is deemed to be an Irish citizen only from the date of his/her entry in the Register and not from the date of birth. This means that children born to that person before his/her date of entry in the Register are not entitled to citizenship.

People registered before July 1986 are deemed Irish citizens either from the date the original Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act came into force, that is, 17 July 1956, or their date of birth, whichever is later. Only children born after 17 July 1956 can claim citizenship in such cases.

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:49 am

Thank you Benifa. So you are confirming that Northern Ireland is included in the Irish consitution from some years ago? Allowing me access to citizenship based on my gran born in Belfast? If so, then I am a very happy man.

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Post by Ben » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:56 am

y2richie wrote:Thank you Benifa. So you are confirming that Northern Ireland is included in the Irish consitution from some years ago? Allowing me access to citizenship based on my gran born in Belfast? If so, then I am a very happy man.
For the purpose of issues pertaining to Irish citizenship, "Ireland" refers to the entire island.

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:00 pm

Thank you! Great news!!

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:52 pm

Just so that I am clear, what is the situation with regard to my current British citizenship? Do I lose it if/when I become an Irish citizen? Do I need to fill out some forms to let one/both governments know of my new/existing citizenship? If I apply for Irish citizenship and get it, do I automatically become British and Irish?

I just want to have the information to hand before I begin this process so that there are no big surprises. Thank you.

EDIT: I have read this on the INIS website:
As far as Irish law is concerned, there is no difficulty about holding Irish citizenship and at the same time citizenship of another State. If you are already a citizen of another country and are considering becoming an Irish citizen, you would be well advised to check first what the position is under the law of your present country of citizenship...
Anyone aware of British ruling on this with regard to Ireland?

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Post by Ben » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:27 pm

Don't worry, British citizenship will not be lost. You do not need to let British authorities know about your Irish citizenship. They will not care anyway. It's perfectly permissible.

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Post by el_gringo » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:40 pm

Hello y2richie,

I am a British citizen and recently gained Irish citizenship myself through foreign birth registration and can give you a couple of tips.

I cannot guarantee the correctness of my advice - I am not an expert, nor am I a lawyer, but as I said I have been through this process myself, and can give you some advice based on my own experience and understanding. The information you have been provided with so far in this thread by benifa is correct.

To be on the safe side and to avoid any worries, you should double-check everything with the relevant authorities rather than just taking peoples' advice online.



Firstly, on the subject of your gran's birth certificate, do you have the original (or a certified copy) of your gran's Northern Ireland birth certificate? Is it the long form birth certificate (should have her parents' details on it)? If so, then I think you don't need to send off for it, it should be acceptable to the Irish authorities. It must be the original (or certified copy) long form certificate.

You should phone your Irish embassy or nearest consulate where you live (if you're not living in Ireland yet), let them know who you are and that you want to apply for FBR, and let them send you the application forms (I know they are online anyway, but there's no harm in letting them send you information in the post).
Also ask them which authority (Irish or British) will hold your gran's 1923 long-form birth certificate (actually, if you already have a short or long-form birth certificate for her, it should be clear from the birth certificate whether it's Irish or British), so that you can send off to the correct GRO office for it if you don't already have it (the long form certificate I mean), or if you don't want to use your gran's original certificate.

For certified copies of long-form birth and marriage certificates you can use www.groireland.ie www.gro.gov.uk and www.groni.gov.uk

EDIT: In fact I just did a quick check and found this out:

From http://www.groni.gov.uk/what-information-held -
"Births registered in Northern Ireland from 1 January 1864."

And from http://www.groireland.ie/faqs.htm#37 :
Question: "I want a Northern Irish Birth/Death/Marriage Certificate for the period after 1921, where can I get it?"

Answer: "General Register Office, Oxford House, 49/55 Chichester St. , Belfast BT1 4HL, Northern Ireland , email: gro.nisra@dfpni.gov.uk"

i.e. http://www.groni.gov.uk has your gran's birth certificate.



Secondly, as far as losing British nationality is concerned - does it say "British Citizen" in your passport? If so, and you have been a British citizen from birth, then you will definitely not lose your British citizenship, and there is no need to tell the British authorities upon gaining a new nationality. I think it's only certain "British subjects" and "British protected persons" who can lose British nationality in this way.

Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_na ... itizenship

And this:
http://ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishci ... tionality/

Also contact the British authorities and double-check your questions regarding dual nationality with them.

e.g. you could phone the Home Office Nationality Customer Contact Centre on 0845 010 5200
http://ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishci ... p/contact/

They will most likely tell you that Britain allows dual nationality, and that there's nothing you need to do as far as the British authorities are concerned. Although on the UK passport application form you are supposed to tell them about all passports you have previously had, and my understanding is that this includes foreign passports, but I haven't had that confirmed yet. You may want to renew your UK passport before you get an Irish one if that turns out to be the case. It wouldn't prevent you renewing your UK passport anyway, so it's not actually a problem, but the British authorities would then know that you have Irish citizenship (which again, isn't actually a problem).

As far as the Irish authorities are concerned, they don't ask new citizens to renounce previous citizenships upon becoming Irish. They also don't tell anyone you have become an Irish citizen. They will know you're British because you're probably going to have to send them a photocopy of your current UK passport with your application.

Sorry if my reply was a bit long, but I hope I was able to help you.

Good luck!
el_gringo

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:14 pm

Thanks benifa and el_gringo. Very useful info.

I have my gran's (long) Northern Ireland GRO certificates for birth and marriage. I need to order her death certificate. I already have it but it's my mum's copy so don't want to send it off. I'm really into family history research so I have ordered certificates from the English and Northern Irish GRO before.

My British passport says British Citizen on it and I'm living in Bournemouth and from England/lived here all my life. I will call the Customer Contact Centre to check on a couple of things and post back here.

It's really great to hear from someone else that's been through this process before el_gringo. Quite a relief actually. :)

I wonder if I register my gran, mother and myself with the Foreign Birth's Register, would my brother need to do all of that again for himself if he wanted to take up Irish citizenship? Or can he rely on the fact that they are already registered via myself? Not a serious question really as I doubt he'll go for it but the thought popped into my head anyway.

Thanks everyone.

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Post by el_gringo » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:35 pm

Hi y2richie

Your brother would have to register himself independently of you, but if one of you is successful then the other sibling surely can't be reasonably denied FBR, especially if you use the same documents pertaining to your mum and gran.

Note that you do not need to register your gran or mum, only yourself. In fact your mum could easily apply for an Irish passport without FBR if she wanted - she would just have to use the Irish passport application form, state that one of her parents was born on the island of Ireland, and prove the link (i.e. using her birth and marriage certificates, and her mother's birth and marriage certificates).

Good luck and let us know how you get on!
el_gringo

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Post by JAJ » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am

y2richie wrote:My British passport says British Citizen on it and I'm living in Bournemouth and from England/lived here all my life. I will call the Customer Contact Centre to check on a couple of things and post back here.

What will you do if the helpline gives you wrong information?

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:40 am

el_gringo wrote:In fact your mum could easily apply for an Irish passport without FBR if she wanted - she would just have to use the Irish passport application form, state that one of her parents was born on the island of Ireland, and prove the link (i.e. using her birth and marriage certificates, and her mother's birth and marriage certificates).

Good luck and let us know how you get on!
el_gringo
Thanks El_Gringo. My mum is applying for her Irish passport this morning and has requested the forms. Cheers for your post. :)
JAJ wrote:
y2richie wrote:My British passport says British Citizen on it and I'm living in Bournemouth and from England/lived here all my life. I will call the Customer Contact Centre to check on a couple of things and post back here.
What will you do if the helpline gives you wrong information?
I guess you are inferring that there is another source for this information. What would you suggest?

If you meant that if I lost my British citizenship, what would I do? Well, if there is nothing I can do about it, I want to be Irish so that would be fine by me.

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:30 pm

I have been unable to get hold of the Irish Embassy or the British Home Office National telephone line for the past two days. I'll keep trying.

The Irish Embassy switchboard 0207 235 2171 in London tells me to contact the wrong extension number x535 and the person that you must telephone instead x511 has been away from the embassy for a couple of days and the final redirect is just a answerphone x549. I have left a message.

The British number 0845 010 5200 just says that they're far too busy and call back later.

I will persist with my enquiries. :)

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Post by JAJ » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:43 am

y2richie wrote: What will you do if the helpline gives you wrong information?

I guess you are inferring that there is another source for this information. What would you suggest?

If you meant that if I lost my British citizenship, what would I do? Well, if there is nothing I can do about it, I want to be Irish so that would be fine by me.
I am inferring that you are far better off to do your own research rather than rely on helplines that give wrong information as often as they give what is correct.

You have already been told you won't lose your British citizenship, there are much better ways to verify this than ring a helpline, for example, the answer is on the Home Office website.

y2richie
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Post by y2richie » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:13 pm

JAJ wrote:I am inferring that you are far better off to do your own research rather than rely on helplines that give wrong information as often as they give what is correct.

You have already been told you won't lose your British citizenship, there are much better ways to verify this than ring a helpline, for example, the answer is on the Home Office website.
With after thought and as a general rule I agree with what you've said. However, I would also like to add that both the telephone number and the website combined to help me understand my situation more clearly. There were a couple of things on the website that I didn't quite understand but after talking it through with someone, I understand now. Yes incorrect information could be given out over the phone but at this point, I feel I understand my situation and will take my chances with what I have.

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