Can someone see any wriggle room?

[Italybound]

This board is a revelation. I thought I was the only ones with dealings with the INIS!

Anyway I am Australian, he is Irish (by birth, no less!) married for 6 years. By a stupid oversight on my part I never applied for naturalisation.

My husband and I would like to go and work in Italy (teaching English) I have the residency visa and I know that I can follow my EU citizen around the EU, but what are my rights to work? I have not kept up as once they stamped my passport I left the whole soul destroying process behind me, I was noticing people suggesting differnt things on this board but I wondered if thye could/would apply to me.

I actually never wanted to deal with them again which is propbably their service mission!

The irony is that we could get jobs quite quickly but if I cannot work then I will be on the dole and that will cost more then granting my naturalisation papers within a reasonable period of time.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

This is a duplicate thread of the posting in the Europe section

[Italybound]

Thanks for replying to both the threads, I posted it twice as I wanted an Ireland perspective as well.

Can I confirm that my rights spring from the fact that I am already living and working in an EU state and that those rights can be transfrerred? Am I correct in thinking that previously the work right was not transferred.

I will do my naturalisation papers (slowly) when I rang the other day and asked if my husband got a job in the EU, but I could not go was it preferable to the state that we remain unemployed. She would not answer!

May I ask another question? I notices on the spreadsheet stickie that the vast majority of applications are not from Australia/NZ is that because they are given pereferentail treatment. For example I have always had a Stamp 4 on my GNIB card.

Thanks for your prompt help.

Cheers

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

So you can not submit your application for naturalization and then leave Ireland?

At least in the UK this is sometimes possible. Prior residence is important up until the application is sent (assuming everything is in order). Intent to remain in the UK is NOT important if you are married to a UK citizen. Intent to remain is important if you are not married to a UK citizen.

[Italybound]

You have to tick a box that says that it says your intention it to remain in Ireland. That is what got the woman at INIS all excited. She said I could not put the application in or proceed with the application if I did not plan to stay.

As they do not have a tracking device, that really is not an issue.

What I found strange was that as the process is 3 years (and I really did not think I could join him so you have really laid my mind at rest) if we cannot get jobs here but could in other EU states, she was saying I could not leave, therefore my husaband would not leave therfore we would be costing the states in benefits.

But form what you are indicating from the direc tive, I can go and they would still ahve to preocess it.

What is strange that they want me to stay in Ireland and be unemployed. The govt here is quite mean spirited but this is something else.

[sideshowsue]

You seem to be asking two separate questions: 1.) Can you accompany your Irish spouse to Italy and seek employment in Italy? and 2.) Can you accompany your husband to Italy and still proceed with an application for Irish naturalisation?

The answer to (1) is simple: Yes, based on EU law and the right to free movement for EU nationals and their non-EU spouses, you are entitled to the same rights to free movement and employment in Italy as your EU spouse.

Your second question is far more problematic since you are assuming that there is 'no tracking device' in place to determine whether an applicant continues to reside in Ireland. This assumption is false since there comes a stage in the processing of the applications for naturalisation that the INIS requests payslips, bank statements and your P21. If you and your spouse are both employed in Italy when INIS finally gets around to opening your file, I fail to see how you could provide sufficient documentary proof that you remain a resident in Ireland.

[acme4242]

A very good analysis by Alan Shatter

http://www.gallaghershatter.ie/law_docs ... 202004.pdf

The complex residential requirements applied to post-nuptial citizenship by the
2001Act as now being amended and which will become effective on the 30th
November 2005 will be open to challenge as being discriminatory as between foreign
spouses of public servants and foreign spouses of others in violation of both the
Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights. The law will also be
open to challenge pursuant to European Union laws and rules which envisage the free
movement of persons within EU member states and which do not countenance any
penalties being imposed by any member state on an EU national who obtains
employment or establishes a business in another member State. In this context, the
validity of a law which denies to the foreign spouse of such Irish citizen an
entitlement to seek post-nuptial citizenship or which poses a threat of revocation of
post-nuptial citizenship after it has been obtained is clearly questionable.

[Italybound]

Bit confusing I know.

See I only have the official form and paperwork and it asks for all the infomation, I did not think that further on down the track they asked for the payslips etc. So if they do that yeah there may be issues.

But as I said to a friend this brilliant government did not see the 'economic crisis' and if they cannot and they are so clever then how am I expected to?

If I go away and work for a couple of years and not be drain on the public purse that is going to count against me for the naturalisation? If my husband gets work on the continent and I follow him that disrupts the application process? Well I know what that contravenes Articles 40-44 about the Irish family, not to mention human rights If the Irish gov't do not have the brains to to look after the economy, I am going to be punished (but then we are all being punished). As it is I cannot get a summer job in England as I do not have the papers and as we know the jobs are very tight here, I am looking.

If Ireland is looking to be a small open economy with a flexible workforce, they are going the wrong way about it.

Thanks again for all your help and advice, I really am relieved as to what I found out today.

[Nehro]

Bit confusing I know.

See I only have the official form and paperwork and it asks for all the infomation, I did not think that further on down the track they asked for the payslips etc. So if they do that yeah there may be issues.

But as I said to a friend this brilliant government did not see the 'economic crisis' and if they cannot and they are so clever then how am I expected to?

If I go away and work for a couple of years and not be drain on the public purse that is going to count against me for the naturalisation? If my husband gets work on the continent and I follow him that disrupts the application process? Well I know what that contravenes Articles 40-44 about the Irish family, not to mention human rights If the Irish gov't do not have the brains to to look after the economy, I am going to be punished (but then we are all being punished). As it is I cannot get a summer job in England as I do not have the papers and as we know the jobs are very tight here, I am looking.

If Ireland is looking to be a small open economy with a flexible workforce, they are going the wrong way about it.

Thanks again for all your help and advice, I really am relieved as to what I found out today.

If you apply for naturalisation as a spouse of Irish citizen, you will need to submit 3 payslips and P21 certificates of the last 3 years prior to your application. Down the line, however, when your application reaches to the stage of "detailed processing", INIS will NOT ask you for further payslips or tax certs (the basis of your application is different from others based on 5 yrs residency). This is at least what is happening now, but things may change in the future. My advice to you is to submit your naturalisation application now and move to Italy (do not inform INIS of your move and do not change your address of correspondence). You can apply to an post to divert your letters for upto 12 months (renewable for another 12 months and so on).
Good luck

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What is the exact wording of (1) the question on the form and (2) the legal requirements for residence going forward in Ireland?

If it is a general intent to reside in Ireland, then going to Italy for a short break of work might not be a problem, as long as you intend to return to Ireland.

It may be worth talking with a lawyer about.

Remember that citizenship law is 100% the responsibility of individual member states. If they decide you only get citizenship if you wear pink every Tuesday, then that is their silly choice.