Hungarian border incident

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:30 am

I thought as much but still the Romanian passport she has should have her second nationality on it which should still mean that she is just residing in Romania as a permanent foreigner cus she still holds another EU nationality and in this case Majeztic should have gotten a residence card for family members of an EU. (she's a german exercising her treaty rights in Romania by holding a permanent permit)

We crossed the border with her Romanian ID,she didnt even apply for the Romanian passport yet,Charles I married her as a Romanian,the Romanian authorities said they didnt care what other nationality she has aslong as she has the romanian

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:38 am

Majeztic wrote: Charles I married her as a Romanian,the Romanian authorities said they didnt care what other nationality she has aslong as she has the romanian

I know the way Romania authorities are and this is why it affects everything generally cus normal your type of residence should be different being the fact she is a German residing in Romania but all the same they have just one type of family card.

I understand u very well Majeztic.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:41 am

Majeztic wrote:
Was your card issued on the basis of the Romanian or the German citizenship?
It was issued based on her Romanian citizenship

Majeztic wrote:The border immigration did not know that she also had German citizenship

If you wife were a Romanian citizen only, and not having exercised a Treaty right in another Member State, your right to reside in Romania would not come under the provisions of the Directive
I fail to agree with you here,If she was only Romanian,The directive would still apply.

<snip>

It matters not that you fail to agree with me (or the others) - it matters that you do not appear to understand the situation. I'll try to spell it out..

(1). Your wife, as a German citizen working in Romania, is exercising a Treaty right and so you, as her family member, are entitled to apply for a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen".

(2). You did not apply for a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", you applied under Romanian national law, for permission to reside as the spouse of a Romanian citizen.

Because you did (2) instead of (1), you do not hold a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", as described in Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC.

What you hold may be a residence card of a family member of a Romanian citizen - and this is not the same. (It doesn't matter if they look the same, as the latter was not issued in accordance with the provision of the Directive, following an application for Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen).

This is the reason why you cannot currently avail of the benefits of Article 5(2-3) of Directive 2004/38/EC:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 5(2-3) wrote:Right of Entry
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national
law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in
Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas
shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members
who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for
in Article 10.

In order to obtain a residence card referred to in Article 10, a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", you should apply to the relevant authorities in Romania for the same. It cannot be refused.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:47 am

Benifa:

So what you are saying is that,with this card I have now,I cannot cross into the EU without a visa? and this card I have is only valid for Romania?

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:53 am

Majeztic wrote:Benifa:

So what you are saying is that,with this card I have now,I cannot cross into the EU without a visa? and this card I have is only valid for Romania?

Normally YES.

But family members are still allowed to travel to any EU country without visa IF they have a prove they are a family member of an EU citizen..example marraige certificate and any other type of family permit and if they travel with their EU spouse.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:02 pm

Benifa :

I have a friend that I just called ,he is a non-Eu married to a Greek living in romania,he has the same card that I have: residence card for Family members.Valid for 5 years.

The romanian authorities issue only 2 kind of cards so even if I ask for a residence card for family members of Eu citizen,it does not exist

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:07 pm

Majeztic wrote:Benifa :

I have a friend that I just called ,he is a non-Eu married to a Greek living in romania,he has the same card that I have: residence card for Family members.Valid for 5 years.

The romanian authorities issue only 2 kind of cards so even if I ask for a residence card for family members of Eu citizen,it does not exist

This is exactly what I am trying to make both you and 86ti understand, The authority issue just one type of family card for 5 yrs in Romania and after they can apply for permanent permit...thats all.

"so even if I ask for a residence card for family members of Eu citizen,it does not exist"...........it doesnt EXIST AT ALL.

Majeztic · Post by **Majeztic** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:16 pm

anyhow charles,I will not complicate things,I will continue going around with this card ,and aslong as it does the job I`m not complaining

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:34 pm

Majeztic wrote:Benifa :

I have a friend that I just called ,he is a non-Eu married to a Greek living in romania,he has the same card that I have: residence card for Family members.Valid for 5 years.

The romanian authorities issue only 2 kind of cards so even if I ask for a residence card for family members of Eu citizen,it does not exist

Here in Ireland, the spouse of an Irish citizen gets a residence card known as "Stamp 4". Until some time in 2006 (or was it 2007 - I'm not too sure), family members of a Union citizen also used to get "Stamp 4".

Directive 2004/38/EC requires that family members to whom the Directive applies should apply for a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", which is a residence card unique from all others, that must be recognisable through the EEA as a residence card described in Article 10.

It was therefore necessary for the Irish authorities to stop issuing "Stamp 4" cards to family members of a Union citizen, and instead create a new "stamp" or status. This new stamp is "Stamp 4 EUFam", and is the card given to all family members of a Union citizen, who have applied for, and had approved, an application for a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen".

Majeztic - from what you have said, it would appear that Romania is doing what Ireland used to do. It is wrong, it is otherwise than in accordance with the Directive, and leads to various problems as you yourself have encountered first hand.

If I were you, I'd make a complaint to the European Commission, who will take steps to correct Romania's current practice.
sg-plaintes@ec.europa.eu

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:53 pm

charles4u wrote:This is exactly what I am trying to make both you and 86ti understand, The authority issue just one type of family card for 5 yrs in Romania and after they can apply for permanent permit...thats all.

Don't worry, Charles. I got you the first time long ago. It's just sometimes so hard to believe how differently individual member states implement the Directive.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:56 pm

benifa wrote:Majeztic - from what you have said, it would appear that Romania is doing what Ireland used to do. It is wrong, it is otherwise than in accordance with the Directive, and leads to various problems as you yourself have encountered first hand.

Some time ago someone on this forum claimed that Italy and Spain would do the same. And somewhere else I read also France. But am not sure of any of that.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:47 pm

Guys is Romania not yet part of the Shengen states. If it is, which i am unsure about, you can travel with your resident card issued under national law or directive 10. Is that not the Shengen policy

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:17 pm

Obie wrote:Guys is Romania not yet part of the Shengen states.

Not until March 2011.
http://x.gov.ro/presa/integrare/afis-do ... dpresa=964

Post by **Obie** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:17 pm

Thanks for that benifa.

Will that not have an impact on the Resident card that they issue,as they have not fully acquired the right to work without a work permit in most member state, or is this not relevant. They are considered as the A2 states are they not? my understanding is that their rights are restricted as well in terms of work rights.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:31 pm

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that A2 nationals may have restricted access to the employment market in other Member States, but the same is not true in reverse.

A German citizen has the right to reside and work in Romania, as per usual in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC. The non-EEA spouse has the same rights, and should apply for a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen".

In this case, it would appear that the non-EEA spouse hasn't done this, which is why he has a residence card of a family member (of a Romanian citizen) - as his spouse is also a Romanian citizen.

As has been established, it would appear that Romania currently (wrongly) issues identical cards to family members of a Romanian citizen and to family members of an EU citizen. This needs to change - as, for one, it causes confusion such as the OP has experienced with the Hungarian border officers, Who, quite understandably, were unable to verify whether the document he presented to them was a "Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen", or residence card of a family member (of a Romanian citizen).

charles4u · Post by **charles4u** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:08 am

So far Romanians can live and work without working permit in ALL eastern european union states and also in Spain, Greece, Cyrpus, Denmark, Sweden, Finland.

They only require working permit in Germnay, Austria, UK, Ireland, France, Italy and Netherland. And mind you ALL EU countries still require working permit for Germany and Austria. (I think)

When they join the schengen by 2011, I am sure they wont require working permit for the rest of the EU countries and all the schengen stuffs will be implemented which included anybody that holds a schengen residence/visa dont need visa for any schengen state.

tt · Post by tt » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:42 pm

As I understand it, Germany and Austria only require extra requirements (whether in the form of a work permit or in some other form) with those EU States which joined the EU from and after 2004 (but not Malta and Cyprus).

Those other EU countries charles4u mentioned (UK, Ireland, France, Italy and the Netherlands, and perhaps some others) only require the "extra requirements" from the 2007 EU entrants, viz Romania and Bulgaria.

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Hungarian border incident