Legal but make Illegal....

[segex]

In my opinion, i think HO should just realease all the students PSW they are pending so that the students can make their decisions and there would be peace. Personally, I am fed up with this system and i don't even plan to stay beyound the intend 2yrs. As I'll need to progress mylife, if HO now messes up with my PP it might not be that EZ moving fwd..

They should remember that these students came here legally and they created the weak avenues that got the students duped (if applicable). Therefore, they should focus on correcting their errors by clossing fault schls, issuing new licence..etc and not forcing legally admitted students to be illegal.

The negative effects of making thousands illegal at same time would outweight the hiden agenda of making job available for British ppl only. Think of increase crime, loss of tax revenue.... etc as ppl would be desperate to survive. Also, propective students would be discouraged coming here. Remember yr pp don't/ pay very little schl fees.

Moreso, around the world, developed countries always have sincere progarms to encourage students/foreign nationals to benefit from thier system. All I'v seen here is plans to make life more difficult for foreigners! So what are the values ....... Pls, HO, just return my PP with the due visa and i shall pack my bag thereafter.

Anybody share this view?

[dahokolomoki]

I honestly disagree with you, even though I myself was a foreign student, graduated 2008, got my PSW, and now working in the UK.

At no point was a PSW or a work permit promised after graduation. Yes, the school fees are high, but it would be the same if you went to the US or even higher. You are paying for the education, not for the right to work here afterwards.

Yes, the long wait at the moment is a huge problem. But from what I gathered, if you graduated from a top 50 university in the UK that is reputable without a doubt, then your PSW visa should be ready between 4-8 weeks. It is only when the graduate is from a university/college that the Home Office has flagged as having scam applications from before, etc. Then they are much thorough with their checks. It could also be that smaller colleges/universities have an inept administration that delay in confirming with the Home Office about student details.

You are in a foreign country and you have to abide by the rules and the wait. I fully understand that, and 99% of other foreigners do to. Being able to get a work visa in a foreign country is not a right, it is a privilege. If you don't want to put up with it, you are free to return to your own country. Of course I believe that the UK should make the visa process easier, but the British can have whatever Home Office system they want because it is their country.


EDIT: Any student who signs up for a college/university course in the UK that implies or "promises" a PSW or Tier 1 visa at the end of the course is not a true educational institution, and therefore will be red-flagged by the Home Office sooner or later.

[vinata]

I am an international student myself, applied for PSW visa and got rejected because the balance on my account dropped down to below a certain level on 2 separate occasions for about a week in total. Obviously, I am now appealing against the HO decision because of an additional evidence which confirms I had the required funds on my account at the time of the application.

Although I not very happy with my own situation, I disagree with Seqex as well. I think that PSW visa should only be given to those who really studied in this country, passed all the exams and were awarded a degree in the end.

I personally know lots of people who exploited the system, who paid money but never attended their institution and worked full-time instead. They hoped either to get a PSW visa in the end or wanted to claim indefinite leave after being in the country for 10 years.

I believe this situation is not right. Yes, you were here legally while on your student visa, and now, when the situation has changed, you could be made illegal because the HO is not going to issue you a visa for not studying, but for simply enjoying yourself and doing what you liked to do instead. I know it is a harsh reality, but what were you thinking about when actually doing that?

I studied in the UK for 7 years, completed an English course, then completed the ACCA and then completed my MBA from one of the universities in London. I studied really hard and paid lots of money, but may still not be able to stay in the UK after all this time if I don’t win the hearing.

So, is it fair? I think that the points based system does not distinguish between those who really studied and those who simply have their documents in order, but at least I have got something to rely on if I am back to my own country. I have got an education and can find a proper work or even establish my own business. But how about you, Seqex? What have you got?

I know you didn’t do anything wrong, but simply exploited the system in order to stay and work in the country. But didn’t you realise that one day the scam might come to light? I have always been thinking about it, and I knew this could have happened; therefore I didn’t give myself a chance get involved in this kind of situation.

I understand your argument is that it is the fault of the HO who allowed this loophole to exist, and therefore, it is not your fault because you simply used this opportunity. And that now the HO should issue you a visa because it needs to accept its responsibility for allowing it to happen. And then you would go and study properly to get your real degree.

But it doesn’t work like that. It is very naïve to even think about it. Now it is time to bear the responsibility for your actions. But I know it is really hard. I really feel sorry for you and all those who are affected, but there is really nothing one can do to save you.

I know you might be thinking how unfair this life is because those Polish guys can stay and enjoy all the benefits just because they were born in Poland. And we, those from outside the EU, need to do almost impossible in order to earn our right to just live and work in the UK. It is really very unfair. But, it is life, and it is very unfair in its underlying nature.

The only thing which is left is to pray and think what to do next. And I hope the God will help you somehow. So, good luck and wish you can prove you deserve to stay in the country.

[segex]

I believe everybody have right to their opinion anyway but to correct the impresion and misconception that i am not a genuine student here, I actually did my PG studies here in uk and currently writting my ACCA with few papers left.

I finished the PGD in April 08. The reality is when i decided to go for it, PSW was not even available to colleges then but the the rules allowed within 12months cover. The intention was to use it for for futher application outside uk if ACCA slows me down. More importantly, it was a matter of sceptism as i did not see any value investing so much in universities here if the job/stay is not certaint(they don't even care about yr Masters/degree).

Holistically, HO finds it very difficult now to dinstinguish genuine students and i have seen unreal students getting it while real ones been rejected. The reason I wrote that to correct the situation the approach being used is not fair and HO needs to start afresh with the schls they licenced not catch-up students in a web!.

Vinata, What even if these students were taking advantage of the system? was is not the HO that created it. Sorry if u think bcos u had invested so much in the system, it is now causing you pains to attack unjustifdly. People migrate outside thier contries for different reasons. Yourself would not be able to fund your MBA etc here except you had violated the rules sometimes or your family are rich. so tell me, how many ppl are in your category? I am still insisting that the problem is not with the students and they should be issued their visas bcos its affecting lots of innocent parties. Schols that are violating the HO compliances should be closed or procecuted in the way students would be warned!

Personaly, i have got nothg to loose leaving this country. The problem is their delay is grieving me alot. within all these mess, I was not able to see my father when he got sick, died and yet to see his grave.
I believe 100s of people are in similar situation. why does it takes 9months to take decision. No country would do that to foreigners and you must be blind to see that there is more to this than that. I am not desperate to be uk a citizen, I have a better life moving on and if its your prayer / wish that some ppl suffer as a result of this I bet you'l be hit most

[vinata]

Sorry Seqex, you were not very clear in your original post. But I personally do not understand why you are worrying. Yes, the HO has made you to wait for long enough, but it is not a reason for you to think that the HO suspects something is wrong with your application. I think you should hire a good solicitor who can write to the HO by referring to the certain points in law and request an official explanation about your situation.

As regards your general thoughts about the fairness of the whole system, I can tell you the following. Everybody does speeding on the roads hoping that they won’t get caught. But when they do, they think “I shouldn’t have done thatâ€

[segex]

Vinata, I understand your points but understand that there little you can do if decision has not been made regarding your case. I do contact my caseworker at least once in a month and all i get was same responce ''we are making futher investigation'' I was even given assurance to countinue working till the outcome so i got no presure regarding that.

You see, I have friends caught up in this predicament and I would be too self centered hoping that they would never get it while i am expecting mine . So, it not a matter of being personally worried but to speak together for a common purpose . What happened was a total failure in a system of operation and to correct it you dont just punish the innocent paties. This case is very synonymous with the recent MPs case.. so why did 'nt they jailed all of them? The system of cashing is now corrected and the MP are moving on.. one even bacame the speaker!

Understand one thing, It is not that these students smuggled themselves in the back of a lorries here or claiming asylum to cheat the system(those are the real cheatters). They were given visas vide a laid down procedure(what they do thereafter is another case). HO they actually knew majority are overwoking as you admitted bcos they filled up the jobs that most citizens would not do. Rule is rule and Law is law, if they should open that alone i bet 98% of students will be sent home. so let no sineth man throw the 1st stone. If that procedures now need adjustment it would be totally bias to just clamp down on ppl just like that bcos of the credit crunch.

HO had been bz focussing on application/licencing fees and when somebody revailed their weakness due to the harrd times they are now tryg to show up. Making all these legal ppl illegal at once would just add to the problem bcos nothing at home for many of them and would rather be causing harvocs here rather than go back to nothing. That is the reality.

Look at it another way, if the PSW thing had not come up these students would have remained legal under student visa (no problem) but when it now relates to full time work, especially this crunch season there has to be a way to pave way for some....

If they can get the visas now I believe they now know better and wiser about instutution that is fake or not and if they cant' sign up with any shol may be due to funding, then they bcame illegal and due to be removed. That is the objective way rather than the subjective manner of sudden hijacking of students. It is totally wrong! HO could do it their way anyway but it not going to be that ez for it. Time and monies would be wasted and innocent ppl would be affected (getting legal assistnc is not that cheap my friend)

Vinata, as a matured coleague, I expect you to be more emphatetic and be able to speak for others at this level. The knowledge and oppotunities bestowed on you from the creator are for the benefit of others not u. Nobody is perfect in this life as we all learn as we are moving on. I belive in applicatn of ethnics/standards but it has to be applied accross and correctly without sentiments. If they are that right why the delays, why the court cases, why the arguments??? simply something is not just right.

[vinata]

Hi Seqex,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, but I simply do not understand your point. What are you trying to argue for? Is it that we should be sympathetic to those people who exploited the loopholes in the system and intentionally enrolled into a fake institution?

Well, I am personally sympathetic to them, because they are people the same as us and now have lost all their hope for a better life. But if you look deep inside the problem, it is not the HO who is guilty in not checking properly on immigrants, but immigrants themselves.

Why did they decide to go this way? They knew there was nothing in their back home countries, so why did they decide to buy a fake diploma or enrol into a fake institution? The answer is they didn’t think about the future, but about the present only. And this was the major mistake. They only wanted to get short-time benefits, and didn’t really think about how it may turn out in the future.

And the future has hit hard. Do you want to say that those students didn’t know they did the wrong thing? I don’t think so. They knew about it 100% but still did it. But why? You suggest that it was because the system allowed it to happen. But this is not the argument. The real argument is that they come to the UK to work, not to study, and therefore it was the only way for them to stay here legally.

If you analyse your example properly with the MPs, then you should be able to see that those who breached the rules of ethical behaviour have now resigned and some of them are even under the police investigation at the moment and there is no way they can come back to the government. They are “deadâ€

[segex]

I'l give you my personal experince as example. When I came in here in 06, i came through a reputable ACCA private shl in london for pgd +ACCA. I had to relocate out of London due to the high cost of living etc..

In my new city I tried severally to look for a good college that trends my line and the 1st college i got, vide the DFES register offered PGD but not ACCA. I decided to start with that first as i needed to settle more into the envirnmt. With beatiful website, past students testimonies, award records etc, i had no reason to think otherwise. I got to the college, had a talk with directors and paid half of the tuition fees. I stated feeling curious when on lecture days we like 2 or 5 in a class and sometime i recieved call that the lecturer would not attend so i should'nt bother coming and they were promising to fix the attendance as it was'nt my fault. As faith would have it, i relocated to a neeby city(due to another pressure that related not to the college thing) and changed the college. I got part of my money back but not that immediately. I latter realised this college was amongst refused to get re-licenced now. I guess i was just lucky to escape that but I know some who did'nt. so what would you have called me? bogus i believe....

You might see there are 3 categories of students here and it would be better if HO can distinguish them( which is practically impossible). The proper ones, the tricked ones and those actually looking to buy(which miight fit your argument). And again the fundermental error on the part of HO was the granting of PSW to colleges(which they have quickly stoped along with Bachelor degrees now). This 3rd categories jump on board as they saw the oppotuinity, the college took the advantage as the HO bz seeking to maximise profits vide premium application, etc..

I am not going to blame the 3rd categories either bcos we all have different approach to survival. My grand parents told me that onece upon a time these ppl were in my country too, exploiting our natural resourses for their survival and i will not expect that trend to stop with surviving nations years to come. If developed countries only focus on what benefits them and only the rich to come and spend their monies here, what do you expect the poor to do? fold their hands and die? nope they will exploit the available opportuinity. so the issue that ppl move under pretence for survival is a binding principle of life.

If you go through the rules guides very well there was no where it mentioned fake institutions(no profound procedure on that) but fake/false documentations(which extend to bank statemnts etc). May be we need to define fake and false clearly here to see who is at fault but i dont think it means 'hey we made mistake granting licences to those colleges, so all you students there are fake/bogus' It sound very barbaric and unprofessional to me. They should concentrate in making sure that it does'nt happen in future. If they can not properly distinguish these students, honestly it would not be fair to be assuming that all from these colleges are bogus, which is the current trend and reasons for my concerns. I guees the simple quetion to ask is what HO stands to gain from these particular operation. I guess there would be no genuine answer than job creation. Meanwhile, the losses would surpass the gains.

If those who steal public funds(due to the system weakness) are not receiving capital punishment other than loose their political office, would it be right for those contributing to the system at one time or onother loose thier lifes, on the same principle? Think of it.

[meats]

You came here to study, if you then decide to work full time and get caught then bye bye. YOU broke the rules in your visa not the HO. If YOU decided not to study then again you broke the rules and not the HO. There was a loophole in the student visa system, if YOU decide to exploit it and get caught then that is YOUR problem. Perhaps you should've notified the HO about the bogus college? I'm not pointing the finger at you segex by the way.

Unfortunately the minority spoil it for the majority. I'm hoping that the HO are taking a long time about visas as it should mean that they're actually doing their job properly for once. You break the rules and you can have no complaints if your visa gets rejected.

[vinata]

Hi Seqex,

Firstly, I don’t think you were bogus at the college you relocated to. This is because you probably didn’t realise that the college was a sham before you started. However, it really depends on how long you stayed over there for. If it was for 2 years and more, then you are certainly guilty of exposing the loophole. But if it was for 6 month or so, then you could argue you left soon after you realised that the college was fake.

I personally know the girl who studied at one of similar colleges in London and she was saying all the time she paid money but never wanted to study. She was working full-time and didn’t even bother to do her exams. Your situation could be different, but I do know that all other students under the roof of a fake college realised what they were doing and, moreover, did it intentionally. So, whose fault is this?

There were 9,000 authorised colleges before the change, now there are only 1,600. All it means that the students from 7,400 colleges would probably be made illegal if they don’t leave the country voluntarily. And they are unlikely to leave, because there is nothing to do in their own countries. So, I do agree, this situation will create a huge problem in the future and I don’t know how the government will attempt to sort it out.

Your argument that the HO needs to combat illegal immigration in the way that students should be warned will not be implemented into life. It sounds like tipping off, and not encouraging to those who do actually study.

Nobody can claim in the court that the only thing they regret about is the fact that they got caught, and not that they actually committed a crime. The same situation happened to all of those students. They all regret they were caught, but not that they did the wrongdoing.

So, what is for them now? Nothing really. It would be very hard for them to find a job, very hard to pay their bills and very hard to stay in the country. So, the life will become much harder than before. So, it is better to plan what to do next now.

As regards your situation, your application has probably been delayed because the HO is unsure whether you attended your first institution or not. They probably try to obtain your attendance records and confirmation that you really were studying there, and not working instead. They are now checking everything, including your past institutions and qualifications.

So, there is nothing one can do to speed up your application. You need to wait and be patient. It may well come through successful.

[segex]

Vanata, you really sounded as if you work in their dept. Anyway, note that I am not objecting to HO correcting the error but concern that innocents are not 'purnished' unnecessarily for whose's fault?

Actually and fortunately i did not even spent up to 3months in the 1st college and i have a perfect record with my latter college. In fact, I received HO letter, that says it has nothing to do with me personally but institutional thing and my college is still amongst the newly accredited. Also, I am still a bonafide student with ACCA college to date but favoured with the rule that qualified me to apply for PSW. so no worries as per that.

Vanata, telling you the reasons for my pains before i now retire... Apart from from my dad's burial/grave that i am yet to withness, I saw my lovely Wf. and 2.kids, last in 12/07. Had bought a ticket to see them since 12/08, which i lost big time!... How do you think i am feeling ?.. praising HO for the goog work ? OK

Well, have a nice time with yourself and i wish you goodluck in your endevours. Thanks for your concerns.