Separation from EU spouse

bovinebose · Post by **bovinebose** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:50 pm

Hi Guys,
I was hoping somebody could help me with my situation. I was married to my partner (from EU) and residing in ireland for more than 3 years now. Things didnt work out and we have decided to separate. I have a son from my marriage and he is nearly 2 yrs now. What are my residence chances? and is there any provision that I can still live and work in Ireland, as if I dont get to live here, I will never be able to see my son again.

Thanks

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:42 am

You are still married? Still both living in Ireland? When (month and year) did you marry? Keep talking to your spouse and try to work things out bit by bit....

bovinebose · Post by **bovinebose** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:04 pm

I am still living in Ireland but my wife has left me for Good. My visa is up for renewal on the 27th of July. I have tried all the means, but there is no chance of her coming back. What should I do?

bovinebose · Post by **bovinebose** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:05 pm

and by the way i am married to her 3 yrs and 4 months and we have a child together who is in poland at the moment with my wife

Post by **archigabe** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:59 pm

I am not trying to be cynical, but three years seems to be the magic number for EU-Non EU marriages to break up.

ciaramc · Post by **ciaramc** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:28 am

Arch - Sorry to say that i was thinking the same thing. Obviously the OP has a child and maybe they are genuinely married! But i have seen loads of cases on here where EU-Non EU split just after 3 years! Coincidence? I don't know but it's making me very cynical!

Post by **Obie** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:59 am

I don't think we should try and generalise situations, and start making judgement about people. Yes there marriage broke up after 3 years. Doesn't mean it was convenience. I have heard of cases where the non-Eu spouse wants out of the marriage due to several reasons like infedility and so on.

One should remember that EU spouses sometimes tend to use the vulneribility of their non-eu spouse as a means of treating them badly, and indulge in act they wouldn't if for example it was an EU person they were married to.

Statistics show the rate of divorce in western nations to be disproportionately high. We have to look at things from that spectacle rather than thinking the non-EU spouse had ulterior motives for being in the marriage.

Yes there might be a possibility the Non-EU tried to reach the magic 3 years requirement, but then again who wouldn't , when they have build root in a country and decided to make it their home.

The OP has a child with the EU partner. Therfore i am convinced there was some sort of relationship, to at least to merit discarding convenience out of the equation.

Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:04 am

archigabe wrote:...but three years seems to be the magic number...

Hi archigabe,

just a personal "hi" - I was in your home country from Jan-Apr this year, and your fellow-citizens were too kind. A magical experience.

Question: Why is "3"years the magical number? In Belgium I'd understand that (citizenship is conferred at that time), but in other EU-countries...? What's the advantage?

Regards, Chrisitan

ciaramc · Post by **ciaramc** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:21 am

Obie i understand what your saying and as I said they do have a child so obviously there was some sort of relationship. I'm not referring to the OP but just in general.....it always seems to be when they reach 3 years they divorce.

Of course but partners in a relationship can use one another for there own benefits!

One should remember that EU spouses sometimes tend to use the vulneribility of their non-eu spouse as a means of treating them badly, and indulge in act they wouldn't if for example it was an EU person they were married to.

They same could be said for Non EU? No?

Christian- the 3 year magic number Arch was referring to is that after 3 years of marriage the Non-EU spouse has right of retention!??

Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:09 am

ciaramc wrote:the 3 year magic number Arch was referring to is that after 3 years of marriage the Non-EU spouse has right of retention!??

Oops - by heart I was thinking it's 5yrs till retention, what made me wonder. But I never got involved in detail with these passages of 2004/38/EC.

For the OP:

I think it would be interesting to know all your folks nationalities, when did you marry, and where did you live from when and how long.

What I gather:

OP is non-EU
wife is EU (Poland)
their kid is thus (maybe OP's nationality) + EU (Poland) ?
they met and married in Ireland
after 3 yrs and a bit the wife filed for divorce and moved to Poland, taking their son with her

If the above is correct, I think you may stay in Ireland. Article 13, section 2 of 2004/38/EC:

Retention of the right of residence by family members in the event of divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of registered partnership

(...)

2. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of the registered partner ship referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not entail loss of the right of residence of a Union citizen's family members who are not nationals of a Member State where:

(a) prior to initiation of the divorce or annulment proceedings or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2, the marriage or registered partnership has lasted at least three years, including one year in the host Member State; or

As all other conditions are "or" they are not relevant. You may stay as-is.

Furthermore I think, as a family-member of yours now lives in Poland (your son), you may move to Poland at all times.

That's my best guess from just reading up quickly, I may be wrong as I lack thorough understanding of these passages!

Regars, Christian

pahadia · Post by **pahadia** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:29 am

Ok lets go back to OPs original query and see what options he has.

OP answer these questions

What visa are you on at the moment ?
Are you working and can arrange work visa/permit ?
How long have you been living in Ireland ?

Post by **Obie** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:18 pm

I think sticking to advising forum members were we can is much better.

When we start being investigative or probing intentions or motives, it get too boring.

I think we should live that boring bit to the department of Justice.

What the OP needs to realise are the requirements which are, he needs to have married to his EU spouse for 3 years, including one year spent in Ireland.

He needs to provide proof that upto to time the decree absolute was issued, his wife was exercising treaty rights in Ireland.

He will also need to provide the DOJ evidence that he is living in Ireland currently like an EU citizen exercising treaty rights.

If he can demonstrate he meets the above requirements as already stated by some honourable members like Christian (Ca. Funke) and others , then he will be fine.

ciaramc · Post by **ciaramc** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:24 pm

OP-

Where are you from? Your visa/residence card?

When where you issued with your RC?

I found the following on the INIS website

The death of the EU citizen, his/her departure from Ireland, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of partnership will not affect the right of family members who are not nationals of a Member State to continue residing in Ireland, subject to certain conditions.

Wonder what these certain conditions are? And also it does not seem to mention 3 years of marriage witha t least 1 in Ireland. I had read this previously. Where I could not tell you. However it did state on the website

If your circumstances change, such as a change of address or a change in family status, you must inform INIS in writing immediately. All such communications in these matters should be addressed in writing ONLY (e- mail is not acceptable for this process) and sent via REGISTERED POST ONLY to:

But i agree with the other posters if you can prove your spouse had been exercising treaty rights and you have lived together/married for three years, you should have no problem retaining your rights to live in Ireland.

Post by **Obie** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:39 pm

ciaramc wrote:
Wonder what these certain conditions are? And also it does not seem to mention 3 years of marriage witha t least 1 in Ireland. I had read this previously. Where I could not tell you. However it did state on the website

Hi Ciaramc, you are right. I realsied the DOJ has deleted the 2006 Regulation and replaced it with the ammended 2008 following the Metock ruling. The 2008 one, however is not very detailed as it is an ammendment.

I have specially for you, done some digging and found the one you are looking for in my Archive.

The three year of marriage including one year in Ireland is on the attachment below on page 7.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/2SI226of ... of2006.pdf

Take care Ciaramc and have a nice day.

Post by **archigabe** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:23 pm

Obie wrote:Statistics show the rate of divorce in western nations to be disproportionately high. We have to look at things from that spectacle rather than thinking the non-EU spouse had ulterior motives for being in the marriage.

If you have a gander at the U.K forum you'll get a better idea of who has more questions on bringing in new spouses over(the younger the better) from their home country after a quickie divorce.

ciaramc wrote:Arch - Sorry to say that i was thinking the same thing. Obviously the OP has a child and maybe they are genuinely married! But i have seen loads of cases on here where EU-Non EU split just after 3 years! Coincidence? I don't know but it's making me very cynical!

We'll it's just that I've come across quite a few posters who write in that their E.U spouse wants to move back to Poland/lithuania/wherever, but they would prefer to divorce and stay back in UK/Ireland.

All this is making me quite cynical. That's exactly the sort of thing that's validating the Irish government's attitude.
Anyway, if the posters have an idea of getting residency by divorcing their E.U spouse and bringing a new spouse over from their home villages, they are in for some unpleasant surprises from the Irish DOJ.

Post by **Obie** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:39 pm

archigabe wrote: All this is making me quite cynical. That's exactly the sort of thing that's validating the Irish government's attitude.
Anyway, if the posters have an idea of getting residency by divorcing their E.U spouse and bringing a new spouse over from their home villages, they are in for some unpleasant surprises from the Irish DOJ.

Archigabe, i understand what you are trying to say, and i respect it fully.
The Irish DOJ using it to validate their repressive measures, is another thing althogether.

With or without these people, the DOJ have sought to and continue to seek to penalise Non-EEA family member of EU national for a number of reasons.

We have to put things into perspective and remember that these people are not doing anything wrong or breaking any laws, they are just exploiting a loophole in the law , which is obviously having unintended consequences on others i accept.

What would you suggest, remove the loophole?

I do have my reservation on people who indulges in these practices, but saying that their actions merits or validate the DOJ's measures is completely wrong. Neither do i think probing there actions on the forum serves any justifiable purpose either.

I am not married to an EU national, i am a dependant under 21 on an EEA national. But the DOJ are still punishing me under the pretence of Marriages of convenience. Every time i go there they are refering to my sister as my wife when they know very well thats not the case. A bit of mind game and generalisation i will say.

ciaramc · Post by **ciaramc** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:12 am

Obie - I understand your point and we are highjacking this post, this will be my last point regarding this matter but you say

With or without these people, the DOJ have sought to and continue to seek to penalise Non-EEA family member of EU national for a number of reasons.

I find that it is not only family members of EU citizens but also family members of Irish Nationals - you do realise how difficult it is for an Irish national to bring their foreign spouse into Ireland?

If you have a gander at the U.K forum you'll get a better idea of who has more questions on bringing in new spouses over(the younger the better) from their home country after a quickie divorce.

I totally agree have seen numerous posts like this!

All of this is making it much harder for us genuine spouses.....I hope the DoJ start taking better measures to ensure that these marriages do not get through these loop holes - and the genuine relationships get better treatment.

Post by **Obie** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:47 am

ciaramc wrote:Obie - I understand your point and we are highjacking this post, this will be my last point regarding this matter but you say

I find that it is not only family members of EU citizens but also family members of Irish Nationals - you do realise how difficult it is for an Irish national to bring their foreign spouse into Ireland?

Ciaramc i despice arguing with you, or disputing you points. And i am pleased to say i agree with you fully.

There is an epidemic of penalising going on in all sphere of the DOJ's practices.

Although one would argue they have a right to stipulate their national law as opposed to European ones, i also do think those Irish national who meet the criteria of the national law are penalised too.

It is highly likely they don't want us to marry Irish/EU nationals.

I have said it, that with or without their stay, if i find a lovely irish woman i like, i will marry her regardless. She can home to my home country. Love is more than the luxury of western materialism. And i am sure there are many of my dreams out there.

Pretty shameful, isn't.

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Separation from EU spouse

Separation from EU spouse