dole and EUfam application

[kwame]

Hi Guys im a new member and i need some advice...i applied for my eu1 residence card in June got a letter few days letter for my 6months stamp 4. I have bn working with my student visa for 5years and im lost my job yesterday (31 july)...my question question is can i apply for an unemployment benifit while my application is still pending?? if i can will it affect the decision of my application..??plse help..

[Obie]

Hi Guys im a new member and i need some advice...i applied for my eu1 residence card in June got a letter few days letter for my 6months stamp 4. I have bn working with my student visa for 5years and im lost my job yesterday (31 july)...my question question is can i apply for an unemployment benifit while my application is still pending?? if i can will it affect the decision of my application..??plse help..

You simply cannot. Even if you meet the habitual resident requirement, you are not allowed to. One of the requirement for a resident card is that your spouse is working or self-sufficient and able to support you, without her or yourself becoming a burden on the state resource. I never thought anyone would contemplate such a thing. It is like giving them a bullet to shoot you.

Please don't give the department of Justice a reason to reject your application. I beg you for your own good.

[Obie]

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[Obie]

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[kwame]

thanks for your reply obie..I thought it wont be a problem as i have contributed a lot for 5yrs to both the tax man the the welfare woman.I dont see this to be a burden on the state becoz they are only payin me back what i have sow..my wife is workin full time and her take home pay is not enough for the whole family..how well the DOJ know that im gettin an unemployment benefit...??

[Obie]

thanks for your reply obie..I thought it wont be a problem as i have contributed a lot for 5yrs to both the tax man the the welfare woman.I dont see this to be a burden on the state becoz they are only payin me back what i have sow..my wife is workin full time and her take home pay is not enough for the whole family..how well the DOJ know that im gettin an unemployment benefit...??

Mate, are you really living in Ireland. The DOJ only need to type in your PPS and everything will come up.

Have you not considered claiming your taxes back, that will be a better move than applying for unemployment benefit. EU national can do so, as there is a common agreement , whereby their home country pays for the first six month or so. This doesn't apply to non-EU nationals.

[Obie]

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[kwame]

the DOJ dnt have my PPS number as i didnt put it on the EU1 application form...the form said if applicable so i ignored that part...

[Obie]

When they do Social Welfare checks, they will put your DOB, Name and Surname and everything about you will emerge.

If however, you feel you will be fine, by all means do it.

[kwame]

do they do tax check aswell?? just wondering coz my student visa was expired for 8months and i was still working with it..meaning i was working illegally...?? jst want to know if they do check with the revenue office..if they do wat kind of information they check?

[Obie]

do they do tax check aswell?? just wondering coz my student visa was expired for 8months and i was still working with it..meaning i was working illegally...?? jst want to know if they do check with the revenue office..if they do wat kind of information they check?

Previously bad immigration history should not affect you at all. Even working while been undocumented should not have much effect/ if any.

What does affect people, is their inability to prove they can maintain themselves without resorting to public funds.

[kwame]

thanks very much mr obie for your sharing opinion with me...i was very worried abt my bad immigration history..one of my friend told me that all students that overstayed their visas had bn issued with deportation letters..i dont knw how true that is though...

[Obie]

thanks very much mr obie for your sharing opinion with me...i was very worried abt my bad immigration history..one of my friend told me that all students that overstayed their visas had bn issued with deportation letters..i dont knw how true that is though...

From the day you become a spouse of an EU national, you cease to be bound by previously bad immigration History. Provided your marriage is legal and not one of convenience.

I will be more concerned about the dole claiming than your bad immigration history if i were you.

[kwame]

i think ill will put a hold to the dole until i get my 5yrs stamp4 eufam..im not soo much interested in the dole...but i since im entitle to it gonna claim if i still dont find a job wen my 5yrs card is out....

[Ben]

Hi Guys im a new member and i need some advice...i applied for my eu1 residence card in June got a letter few days letter for my 6months stamp 4. I have bn working with my student visa for 5years and im lost my job yesterday (31 july)...my question question is can i apply for an unemployment benifit while my application is still pending?? if i can will it affect the decision of my application..??plse help..

You simply cannot. Even if you meet the habitual resident requirement, you are not allowed to. One of the requirement for a resident card is that your spouse is working or self-sufficient and able to support you, without her or yourself becoming a burden on the state resource. I never thought anyone would contemplate such a thing. It is like giving them a bullet to shoot you.

Please don't give the department of Justice a reason to reject your application. I beg you for your own good.

There are so many things incorrect about this post that I don't know where to start. Sorry Obie - but again you are spouting tripe.

If kwame is the family member of a Union citizen, as described in Article 2(2) or 3(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC, then he/she is a person with the right to reside in Ireland in accordance with the provisions of the Directive.

Article 24 of the Directive provides that equal treatment of Union citizens, their family members (regardless of nationality) and Irish citizens is guaranteed.

A person described in Article 2(2) or 3(2) has the right to reside, to work, to study, to open a business in Ireland. He/she is entitled to be treated as an Irish citizen should he/she lose their job and become entitled to claim Jobseeker's Benefit / Allowance.

The notion that "One of the requirement for a resident card is that your spouse is working or self-sufficient and able to support you" - is fictional. There are clear circumstances where a family member need not be dependent on the Union citizen, either in the host Member State or in the country of origin (for example, if he/she was a member of the household of the Union citizen).

kwame - below are quotes from Articles 2 and 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC. Are you a person so described?

:-

Definitions

For the purposes of this Directive:

1) "Union citizen" means any person having the nationality of a Member State;

2) "Family member" means:
(a) the spouse;
(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has contracted a registered partnership, on the
basis of the legislation of a Member State, if the legislation of the host Member State
treats registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage and in accordance with the
conditions laid down in the relevant legislation of the host Member State;
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the
spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
(d) the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or partner as
defined in point (b);

Beneficiaries

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other
than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2
who accompany or join them.

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have
in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate
entry and residence for the following persons:
(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in
point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or
members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or
where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the
Union citizen;
(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.
The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and
shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people.

If so, you are a person with the right to reside in Ireland; a person with the right of equal treatment with Irish citizens.

:-

Equal treatment

1. Subject to such specific provisions as are expressly provided for in the Treaty and secondary
law, all Union citizens residing on the basis of this Directive in the territory of the host Member
State shall enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State within the scope of the
Treaty. The benefit of this right shall be extended to family members who are not nationals of a
Member State and who have the right of residence or permanent residence.

2. By way of derogation from paragraph 1, the host Member State shall not be obliged to confer
entitlement to social assistance during the first three months of residence or, where appropriate, the
longer period provided for in Article 14(4)(b), nor shall it be obliged, prior to acquisition of the
right of permanent residence, to grant maintenance aid for studies, including vocational training,
consisting in student grants or student loans to persons other than workers, self-employed persons,
persons who retain such status and members of their families.

To conclude:-

Hi Guys im a new member and i need some advice...i applied for my eu1 residence card in June got a letter few days letter for my 6months stamp 4. I have bn working with my student visa for 5years and im lost my job yesterday (31 july)...my question question is can i apply for an unemployment benifit while my application is still pending?? if i can will it affect the decision of my application..??plse help..

Yes, you can apply for Jobseeker's Benefit. Your application must be dealt with as if you are an Irish citizen. Your pending application for a Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen (EU1) cannot be affected.

[Obie]

I was under the impression that Article 7 Section 1b implies that they have to have adequate resource to maintain themselves, so that they do not become a burden to the state resource.

Article 7
Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the
territory of another Member State for a period of longer than
three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member
State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance
system of the host Member State during their period of
residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover
in the host Member State; or

At my place of voluntary work, we have received several client, who have had their residency application refused because their partners were made redundant and had to resort to unemployment benefit. Even though the directive make provision for such people.


Also article 24 states this :

2. By way of derogation from paragraph 1, the host
Member State shall not be obliged to confer entitlement to
social assistance during the first three months of residence or,
where appropriate, the longer period provided for in Article
14(4)(b), nor shall it be obliged, prior to acquisition of the right
of permanent residence, to grant maintenance aid for studies

Like i said to the OP, he could do whatever he deems is in his best interest, but i will not advise he resort to benefit.

Seen as i am desperately seeking to get into your good books, i will try not to argue with you too much either.

[Ben]

I was under the impression that Article 7 Section 1b implies that they have to have adequate resource to maintain themselves, so that they do not become a burden to the state resource.

Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) – are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host
Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal
purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
– have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the
relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as
they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member
State during their period of residence; or
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions
referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).

(read carefully).


In any case, receiving Jobseeker's Benefit is not becoming a burden on the host Member State. JB is only paid when sufficient PRSI contributions have been paid. Even in the case of JA, the HRC must be fulfilled, together with the means test.

At my place of voluntary work, we have received several client, who have had their residency application refused because their partners were made redundant and had to resort to unemployment benefit. Even though the directive make provision for such people.

I would hope that you advised them to contact Solvit.

People should not be deterred from applying for and receiving the social welfare benefit's to which they are entitled, for fear of their application for a Residence Card being denied by the Department of Justice. That is absurd.

Important to remember here, is that a person's right to reside, in accordance with the provisions of the Directive, is afforded to him/her by their relationship to an EEA national - not by a card or document merely confirming so.

Have another look at Article 24:

Equal treatment

..

2. By way of derogation from paragraph 1, the host Member State shall not be obliged to confer
entitlement to social assistance during the first three months of residence or, where appropriate, the
longer period provided for in Article 14(4)(b), nor shall it be obliged, prior to acquisition of the
right of permanent residence, to grant maintenance aid for studies, including vocational training,
consisting in student grants or student loans to persons other than workers, self-employed persons,
persons who retain such status and members of their families.

..but i will not advise he resort to benefit.

Maybe this is the socialist in me talking (but then, as someone pro-EU, perhaps it's natural to be at least a little left of centre), I find the phrase "resort to benefit" falls rather uneasily on my ears (or eyes). We pay stamps in, we get stamps out when necessary. If I ever find myself unemployed, I wouldn't think twice about claiming UB. It wouldn't be something I'd "resort" to - it'd be mine to take.

Seen as i am desperately seeking to get into your good books, i will try not to argue with you too much either.

Bless you. I hope you're joking - I am nobody. Anyway Obie, I don't mean to come across as harsh on you. Sorry for saying you were spouting tripe. Have some cookies..


Hopefully if you think I'm ever spouting tripe, you'll not think twice about telling me so (again).

[Obie]

In any case, receiving Jobseeker's Benefit is not becoming a burden on the host Member State. JB is only paid when sufficient PRSI contributions have been paid. Even in the case of JA, the HRC must be fulfilled, together with the means test.

I am perfectly aware of this. I am sure the DOJ are as well. However they have failed to acknowledge, or appear to be showing lack of knowledge of this. 3 Of our clients have their cases currently being dealt with in review department - a process that might take up to 4 month.
The DOJ fail to consider their EEA family members as community worker after they were made redundant, despite the fact that Article 7 section 3(b) of the directive says they are supposed to be treated as such.
The non-EU national is in employment, due to the rights conferred by his student visa, whiles the EEA national is on JB.

I would hope that you advised them to contact Solvit.

As a standard procedure, we did. Not that i think he will achieve much. A member of staff there, had previously told me she is fedup with the DOJ due to their failure to reply to her correspondents.

People should not be deterred from applying for and receiving the social welfare benefit's to which they are entitled, for fear of their application for a Residence Card being denied by the Department of Justice. That is absurd.

I perfectly agree. I don't hold any rabid right wing views towards benefit claimant. I believe if they meet the requirements, they should certainly not be deterred. However if this will cause a delay or an unjust refusal of his application, it will be best for him to put an hold to it, in order to be on the safe side.

Important to remember here, is that a person's right to reside, in accordance with the provisions of the Directive, is afforded to him/her by their relationship to an EEA national - not by a card or document merely confirming so.

We clarified this in the past, when we had one of our heated discussion.

Maybe this is the socialist in me talking (but then, as someone pro-EU, perhaps it's natural to be at least a little left of centre), I find the phrase "resort to benefit" falls rather uneasily on my ears (or eyes). We pay stamps in, we get stamps out when necessary. If I ever find myself unemployed, I wouldn't think twice about claiming UB. It wouldn't be something I'd "resort" to - it'd be mine to take.

I hold a strong socialist view. I am more to the left than the word itself.
I did not mean to sound condescending to the OP. I understand times are tough and the economic predicament of the OP is dire. However i was just trying to prevent a situation whereby he has to go through the timely review process of explaining the fact that, his refusal was unlawful and unjustified.

Have some cookies..

As it happens, i was just having some and a cup of chocolate, whiles packing up for my eagerly awaited holiday. Thanks anyway, i am sure there is still room for many more.

Hopefully if you think I'm ever spouting tripe, you'll not think twice about telling me so (again).

I wouldn't dare. Not if my past experience doing so is anything to go by.

[kwame]

i will like to than you all ( Obie & Benifa) for contributing...i have made lots of enquiries abt this dole claims and it seems every1 is askin me to wait even my wife...i had a chat with one of my friend who is married to an irish and he said i shld wait till they approve my 5yrs residence and ill get all money back from the welfare since the time i lost my job..thats not too bad i suppose...i have 4months more to wait...

[Ben]

he said i shld wait till they approve my 5yrs residence and ill get all money back from the welfare since the time i lost my job..

He is wrong. If approved, Jobseeker's Benefit / Allowance is backdated from the date of your claim, not from the date you became unemployed.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... nt_benefit

[akwadaa]

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[akwadaa]

hey kwame go get your money.Job seeker benefit is not a burden to the state as ben explained to u..u only become a burden to the state when u are on the job seeker allowance and u remain there for soo long without any effort to find one...My cousin lost his job and was on the jobseeker benefit for 6months before getting married.He applied for his stamp4 EUfam last year and got it.. its not a crime and INIS wont punish u for that...ALL the best mate...