Catch 22 for the children of immigrants?

[Ben]

Looking for clarification on something chaps, please. I'm asking as this issue is relevant to number of friends of mine. Also, it's cropped up on this board before.

The situation is quite classic, so I understand. Work permit holders. They come to Ireland on a work permit and so hold Stamp 1 (usually). Their spouse will hold Stamp 3 and their children, if in school, get Stamp 2 (right so far?).

Five years pass by, the work permit holder applies for LTR. After processing, LTR is granted and the ex-work permit holder has his Stamp 1 changed to Stamp 4.

Great, but what about his kids?

Do they stay on Stamp 2, so they can continue studying and are permitted to work part time? If they do, what happens when their studies finish? Their entitlement to Stamp 2 also finishes.. then what? My understanding is that time on Stamp 2 is not counted as reckonable residence towards their own LTR application, so are they left with nothing but the slim possibility of finding a company willing to apply for a work permit for them, and, even if so, *bang* - Stamp 1 - and off they start with their own "journey" towards LTR. (?)

Or do they, as the children of an LTR Stamp 4 holder, get Stamp 3? No work, no study, so not really much good for them - except time on Stamp 3 is counted as reckonable residence towards LTR.

Example - a child comes to Ireland at age 12, following Daddy who's working hard, making a new home for them. The child's entire secondary education is in Ireland. By the time they're 17 they're doing the Leaving Cert and have an Irish accent as strong as all their friends'. They embrace Irish culture and become a part of Irish life, and Irish life becomes a part of them. By all accounts, the child is an "Irish" kid, pretty much just as every other.

Forgive me if I've missed something, I admit that this area isn't one of my strong points but.. isn't the DoJ leaving the children of work permit holders pretty much screwed? Surely, if LTR is granted for the parent, it should granted for the entire resident family.

[TRV]

leave the LTR aside for the minute, but if the parent got irish passport via naturalisation and the kids still in school and over 20 and on stamp 2 or 3, how is it works then? does anybody know?

[Ben]

leave the LTR aside for the minute, but if the parent got irish passport via naturalisation and the kids still in school and over 20 and on stamp 2 or 3, how is it works then? does anybody know?

I *think* the children and spouse of an Irish citizen gets Stamp 4 - but I'm not sure, especially if the children are over 16.

[agniukas]

if a parent is naturalised, then the child gets stamp 4 as a dependant of irish national. but it would depend on the age of the child... if a 'child' is around 25 and married I don't think that it would work, as he wouldn't be a dependant any more... so the age is a bit of the grey area.
if a child arrived to ireland as a minor, chances are that his stamp 2 may be counted towards citizenship.
even if the child is on stamp 3 for a period of 5 years and that counts for LTR, according to the current LTR rules the child same as the dependant spouse, would be getting stamp 3 for 5 years. which is still no good for him as he is not allowed to work.
there are some changes planned in the new immmigration bill in relation to LTR. they were planning to give stamp 4 for the dependants as well as the actual work permit holders. therefore, child's and spouse's stamp 3 would change to stamp 4. however, that bill is overdue with no actual date and not sure what parts will remain after it's passing through the Dail.

[9jeirean]

It is indeed a catch 22 situation. However, I think INIS will consider each situation on an individual basis.

A family friend was in a similar situation: Came in to Ireland on a W/P in 2001. His wife and 2 children, who were in their mid teens at that time joined him in 2002. They Initially got stamps 3 which was later converted to stamp 2 in 2006 to facilitate their college studies.

My friend got his LTR in 2007 and subsequently (I think on the advise of his solicitor) got the children to apply to the General Immigration Section of INIS for a conversion to stamp 4. On the basis of been the child of a LTR holder (Having been granted residency originally as a minor dependant of a work permit holder). They submitted all paper works (pasport pages indicating stamps and ages on arrival in Ireland, previous stamp changes, letters from college etc. )

It took about 2 months but they were both granted a stamp 4 originally for 1 year, which was subsequently renewed last year for another 5 years .

Now coming up to Naturalization application, they (the Children) applied in 07, shortly after recieving their stamp 4, but both applications were returned on the basis that their period on Stamp would not count towards naturalization. Now they are in the process of reapplying