Family permit expiring with foreign holiday coming up.

[benj]

Hello everybody,

In our search for answers we stumbled on this forum. Hopefully somebody can help us with the following.

I am a US citizen who is married to a Dutch citizen working in the UK.

I entered the country with a family permit last year which I got without any hassle from the English consulate in Amsterdam.

Now the problem: My husband and I have planned a trip to Paris for Christmas. When we called IND to find out how to renew the family permit, they told us that we both have to file for a residence permit.

The thing of it is, they also told is that this is going to take up to 6 months, which we were very surprised about as the family permit only took like 10 minutes. And we need to mail our passports.

Of course, we cannot travel to France without our passports. My family permit expires on the 26th of november.

Can I just leave the country and file for my residence permit when we come back in january? And if so, could I get in trouble at customs when they see that my family permit has expired?

We have been really looking forward to this holiday and hope that there is any way of finding a solution. Please can anybody give some advice?

All help and info will be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Betsy

[bash_h]

Benj,

I dont have direct experience of the family permits in the UK, but im doing what your doing the other way around! (My wife is non-EU and living in Amsterdam )

Anyway, AFAIK it wouldnt be a problem. The permit, you have to understand, is not a necessity, it is a verification. You derive your freedom of movement rights from the marriage to your Dutch wife, not through a permit, the permit merely verifys it.

Anyhow, lets say you go to Paris and on your way back Immigration ask you your purpose for entering the UK. I dont see any problems with you saying, I live here but my permit has expire, but i'll make sure I renew it asap, mr officer sir!

The reason why I think that is because EU law says you have the right of entry in another EU country when travelling with your wife, and the immigration officer must give you a full oppurtunity to prove this relationship, IF you are not in posession of a valid EEA permit. In other words, see this.

CHAPTER 7 - EEA NATIONALS & THEIR FAMILIES

So, in short, the immigration officer will ask you a few questions and then maybe stamp your passport with an EEA stamp. The ONLY reasons they can refuse you entry is on the grounds of Public Health, Public Security or Public Policy!

Note this is very general advice, however if I was in your situation I'd certainly try it, good lucK!

[bash_h]

In the abovementioned PDF doc, see sec 3.2

[John]

The reason why I think that is because EU law says you have the right of entry in another EU country when travelling with your wife

It does, but it does on to say that such right does not negate the need to get any visa that is required. Here the OP is a US Citizen, so should not have any problem entering any other countries in Europe but if they had been a "visa national" then a Schengen visa would have been required.

Betsy, you had overlooked the date of expiry of your EEA Family Permit? If not, why was the Paris trip planned? Were you hoping to be able to "get away with it"? As a US Citizen you need a UK visa or permit to enter for longer than six months ... whatever the reason you are entering. You are planning to enter without a new EEA Family Permit. Don't be surprised if you get refused entry when returning to the UK.

[ppron747]

Not the most romantic way to pass the time, but would Betsy be able to apply for a further family permit in Paris?

Just a thought.....

[John]

Paul, I don't think so. She is clearly not a resident of France so the British Embassy in Paris is hardly likely to agree to deal with such an application.

[bash_h]

Agreed John, but do you think if the immi officer would refuse, they would have to do so under Public Health/Policy/Security, and if this is the case, not having a visa prior to travel doesnt fall under these categories? (remember MRAX Vs Belgium case, where the officials at the borderhave to give every opportunity to prove relationship to the EU national)

[John]

bash_h, you may well be right. However, why take the chance? Much safer surely ensuring that the EEA Family Permit is in the passport before engaging in any foreign travel.

[benj]

First of all, thanks for your responses.

If I had known about this all, I would have never booked my holiday. I guess i was just naive to think I could just go to some office and have my family permit extended.

But IND confuses me. Their information seems to contradict.

I do not want to take any chances as my legal stay in the UK is more important as 1 holiday. But I also don´t want to give up my holiday, just to find out later there was no need to.

What if I apply now for my family permit and send copies of our passports with a note explaining them about my holiday and that I will send the originals right after my holiday?

[John]

What if I apply now for my family permit and send copies of our passports with a note explaining them about my holiday and that I will send the originals right after my holiday?

But that won't get you a new EEA Family Permit in your passport for when you attempt to re-enter the UK.

This is not ideal, but if I were you I would submit the application in the very near future, obviously with all the required supporting documentation, and also with a covering letter saying about the Paris trip at Christmas time. You might ask if they can deal with the application promptly, or if they can't, could they at least grant you a two month extension and promptly return the passports?

If you don't ask ... you can't possibly get. You never know!

It is clearly the case that you intend to stay in the UK for over six months ... you are living with your husband ... and I reiterate that it is now the case that all nationalities always need a visa or permit if intending to stay in the UK for more than six months. You might be lucky, but I don't think you should asssume that you will be re-admitted to the UK without a new EEA Family Permit in your passport.

[Kayalami]

my 0.02p,

Notwithstanding afore mentioned EEA regs the IO can still refuse entry and not just on public policy etc. The rules merely state that ease of entry be facilitated - hence the Home Office discretion terminology. The op has been issued a family permit before and has had ample time to renew it. IMHO this weighs towards a refusal of landing. As per John's comments Paris won't issue a permit given the op is not a long term legal resident.

However I believe we lose sight of something more crucial - that the op would be harming their 'legal residence' requirements for naturalisation if they no longer have any 'status' after 26 November 2005. On this grounds alone I would postpone the trip for another time.

If the op's spouse has been exercising treaty rights in the UK (employment/self employment) for the last 4 years submit form EEC2 to the Home Office. If he does not hold a residence permit then submit EEC1 and EEC2 to include you/any children under 21 and unmarried as dependents. Both residence permit and ILR will be granted for everyone. To ensure the retention of legal residence the op best post the application forms by special delivery no later than Friday 24 Nov 2005.

bonne chance

[John]

Kayalami, the forms EEC1 et seq have now all been superceded. This IND webpage contains links to the new EEA1, EEA2, EEA3 and EEA4 forms.

So it looks like the Dutch husband should complete an EEA1, and also a EEA3 if he has been exercising his treaty rights in the UK for at least four years, and Betsy, the US wife, needs to complete a form EEA2.

I totally agree .... Betsy and her husband need to post those forms to IND no later than Friday this week .... preferably earlier.

[JAJ]

Once the immediate crisis of the upcoming holiday is solved, the original posters (both of them) ought to think about their pathway towards Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR).

Even if the Dutch partner does not want to naturalise as British, ILR has advantages over EEA status. And the status of the US spouse in the UK will be much more secure if ILR is held. Plus, the US spouse would be able to proceed towards naturalisation independently after a total of 5 years in the UK (1 year with ILR).

And in response to the point about an "English consulate" it is pedantic but nonetheless correct to point out there's no such thing as an 'English consulate' - it's a *British* consulate.

[ppron747]

...And in response to the point about an "English consulate" it is pedantic...

I agree!

...but nonetheless correct to point out there's no such thing as an 'English consulate' - it's a *British* consulate.

I both agree and disagree: It is certainly correct that there's no such thing as a British consulate, but it's not necessarily correct to point it out.

[bbdivo]

...And in response to the point about an "English consulate" it is pedantic...

I agree!

...but nonetheless correct to point out there's no such thing as an 'English consulate' - it's a *British* consulate.

I both agree and disagree: It is certainly correct that there's no such thing as a British consulate, but it's not necessarily correct to point it out.

Going off topic, but I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out.

[Kayalami]

Kayalami, the forms EEC1 et seq have now all been superceded. This IND webpage contains links to the new EEA1, EEA2, EEA3 and EEA4 forms.

Thanks for the heads up John. Goes to prove best to get info from the source .