PASSPORT INFORMATION FALSE! HELP! A REAL SAD SITUATION

[JamesStraker]

I find myself caught in the middle of a very difficult situation and I do not know what I should do? I'm not sure if this is what this forum is for, but I don't know where else to go Trying to find advice on this issue is not easy. I am a British Man, from a British family, with a British Passport and my girlfriend is half Lithuanian/half Finnish and has lived in the UK for some time. We are thinking of setting up home together. My girlfriend was born and raised in Finland, but holds a Lithuanian passport. I have wondered why she does not hold hold a Finnish passport. The reason (I have only just found out) is because the information on her Lithuanian passport is false. Her date of birth is wrong by six years, and her place of birth is also wrong. She was born in Finland but her passport says she was born in Lithuania. Basically when she was 13, she got pregnant to a Lithuanian man. She was brainwashed into an illegal marriage with a this man, illegally moved to Lithuania with false papers without the consent of her parents and all her documents were changed by her then husband. She managed to get away from the marriage and start a new life in the UK, however she is living her life under false information. Her date of birth is false and so is her place of birth, and because of this her driving licence, bank details and everything she has is all incorrect. How can we start a life together and a family if she is living a lie. She wants her real identity back, but she is scared if she goes to the Finnish embassy she will be prosecuted or end up in prison. The problem is that she has been living under this identity for so long she doesn't know any different. Also the second problem is that her real identity doesn't exist anymore. She has no papers, no birth certificate, no nothing! Everything she has shows the incorrect information. Both her parents have since died in Finland, she has no siblings. How do we get out of this complete mess!! Can anyone out there help us? I have been everywhere for help and just get passed from pillar to post. I don't think I've slept properly for weeks with this hanging over my head. We were going to try and apply for a passport with the Finnish embassy, but how do we explain where she has been for the last 20 years? What a complete mess, some people would probably just walk away from this mess but I can't just abandon her I want to help but this problem is out of my league. We want to do the right thing, but what is the right thing? We are so desperate we feel like just walking into a police station and handing them all her documents and just let nature take its course. She is not interested in causing trouble for her ex husband, she just wants her identity back and everything to be above board. Can anyone out there help? Has anybody had or come across a similar situation?

[Ben]

Hi James.

I might be completely wrong here, but on the face of it would that your girlfriend has been a victim. You / she probably needs proper legal advice, but I don't think there's a reason for her to be scared.

To start with - is she a Finnish citizen? I personally know nothing about Finnish nationality law, other than a quick read on Wikipedia a moment ago. Was at least one of her parents a Finnish citizen at the time of her birth? If not, it may be that your girlfriend is not a Finnish citizen at all, but a Lithuanian citizen only.

In any case, is there a facility in Finland to obtain a copy of a birth certificate? In the UK this can be done online. I think obtaining this should be the first step. But again, I really think your girlfriend should seek legal advice.

[Mr Rusty]

I once dealt with a case where a non-European claimed to be Finnish, and held a genuine birth certificate relating to an actual birth in Finland about 30 years previously. He went to the Finnish Embassy in the Netherlands and tried to establish his Finnish citizenship and get a passport there. The Finnish Embassy told him that his citizenship could only be claimed in Finland after a year's residence there.
Your case is a bit different, because his parents were not Finnish, whereas your g/f claims to be Finnish both by birth and by descent. But I don't think the Embassy in the UK will be prepared to help you. And, as you obviously realise, the application to secure her real identity and nationality, whether made in the UK or in Finland, is bound to force her to give up the only identity she's got without any guarantee of success. Only by going to Finland and seeking out people who knew her there, and cousins, uncles and aunts who might be able to support her claim can she have any hope at all.
If this appears too tall an order she may have to accept that in marrying you she is obtaining a new identity. Lots of adopted people accept the identity that has been given them, knowing they are "really" somebody else.

[JamesStraker]

Just to clarify a few things. Her Father was Finnish, her mother was Lithuanian. She was born in Finland, and lived there from birth until the age of 13. She then lived from the age of 13 until her late 20s in Lithuania, under the false identity created for her. To answer the reply sent by Mr Rusty, yes marrying me would maybe give her a new identity, but how does that solve the problem that her date of birth is incorrect by 6 years? The thought of having to bring up our children and lie to them about their Mother's age for the rest of our lives is just not moraly right in my opinion. Also if I am marrying somebody who is living under false information, am I not also breaking the law by knowingly doing this? I would consider myself an honourable law abiding citizen, and I want to do things the correct way. If we just went to the UK Immigration authoroties and basically told them the whole truth from start to finish, how do you think they would deal with her? It seems like a grey area to me because how can they deport her back to Lithuania if her identity wasn't real in the first place, so officially she wasn't really a citizen of anywhere because this identity isn't real? The only real identity was before she was 13 which was in Finland, so is this not a matter for the Finnish Authoroties aswell? I think my head is going to explode

[Ben]

Hi James.

Fear not about your girlfriend being deported. This will not happen. In any case, as an EU national, she is not subject to immigration control and so I do not believe that this case is of any interest to the UK immigration authorities (UKBA).

As she was born in Finland to a Finnish father - your girlfriend is a Finnish citizen, as I understand.

Is it possible for your girlfriend to apply for a copy of her birth certificate, either via the Finnish embassy in London, or to the relevant authority in Finland directly?

[JamesStraker]

Hi Benifa

It really is very kind of you to respond to us. We really do appreciate it because we are totally clueless about everything on this subject. She may well be able to obtain a copy of her birth certificate. But even if we manage to do this, I don't think this on it's own will be enough to apply for a Finnish passport. I have previously looked at the requirements for a Finnish passport and you require either a Finnish identity card and/or your old passport. Well we can hardly hand in her old Lithuanian passport with incorrect details. It also says that if it's your first application they verify your details by an investigative process. Two problem's.. if we say its her first passport how did she get into the UK without a passport? and how do we explain the fact that she has vanished into thin air for the last 19 years and now just suddenly woken up in London? What if we were to just destroy all of her false documents, then just walk into the Finnish embassy, explain that she has no identity, surely they would have a legal obligation to do something with her

[Ben]

Hi James.

You're very welcome. I must reiterate though, I know nothing about Finnish nationality law. But I will try and think logically, and hopefully someone with more experience will come on to clarify.

You are right about the question about how did your girlfriend get to the UK when she has never held a Finnish passport. Volunteering the information that you have stated here to the Finnish embassy in London might open the floodgates and cause more harm than good.. but then again it could go the other way. (?)

What about your girlfriend going to Finland and trying to get a copy of her birth cert and then a passport while there?

I know what you mean, it looks strange that she vanished for 19 years and then suddenly reappeared. But it isn't that unusual that some people don't possess a passport. If you never leave your country, you don't need one (theoretically).

She could, in this order:

• Go to Finland.
• Obtain a copy of her birth certificate.
• Obtain a copy of her father's birth certificate.
• Obtain a Finnish identity card.
• Obtain a Finnish passport.
• Return to the UK.
• Discuss with a solicitor the possibility of correcting any data (driving licence, etc) about her in the UK, in line with her correct identity.

I realise that the above may be easier said than done, to say the very least. I don't even know if all or any of it is possible. It is a theory though.

[krazydude]

James, like benifa, I too am not aware of the intricacies of Finnish Immigration laws, but I did a quick search to find out that in order to get a passport you need a national ID card and in order to get national ID card you need a passport !!, which just does not make sense.

Code: Select all

http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/pages/F082D8AB29097DB5C2256C29002BA66C?opendocument

http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/pages/ED1EB27BDF21BC8AC22571CE00544064?opendocument

I am sure that there must be another way to getting identity cards legally, like producing birth certificates or bank slips. Now your girlfriend does not have either so I think she needs to return back to Finland and start the rebuilding process. I am not sure if going up to the authorities and telling them the chain of events you mentioned here, would help or harm her, so I really cannot tell you anything there. The order of things which benifa has mentioned seem logical but I am not sure if authorities there would be able to issue birth certificates to anyone without proper identity documents, meaning why would they issue a birth certificate of Miss X to Miss. X with a different nationality, even though you know they are one and the same. It would also be difficult to get hold of a birth certificate for your girlfriend's father (I do not see why this would be needed-his birth certificate does not prove that he is in anyway related to your girlfriend). It would be better if she could get in touch with relatives who inherited assets that your girlfriends parents left behind to see if you can gather some documents which could help you apply for further identification documents.

[JAJ]

I find myself caught in the middle of a very difficult situation and I do not know what I should do? I'm not sure if this is what this forum is for, but I don't know where else to go Trying to find advice on this issue is not easy. I am a British Man, from a British family, with a British Passport and my girlfriend is half Lithuanian/half Finnish and has lived in the UK for some time. We are thinking of setting up home together. My girlfriend was born and raised in Finland, but holds a Lithuanian passport. I have wondered why she does not hold hold a Finnish passport. The reason (I have only just found out) is because the information on her Lithuanian passport is false. Her date of birth is wrong by six years, and her place of birth is also wrong. She was born in Finland but her passport says she was born in Lithuania. Basically when she was 13, she got pregnant to a Lithuanian man. She was brainwashed into an illegal marriage with a this man, illegally moved to Lithuania with false papers without the consent of her parents and all her documents were changed by her then husband. She managed to get away from the marriage and start a new life in the UK, however she is living her life under false information.

This kind of story doesn't make any sense.

If she was kidnapped at age 13 (or ran away) don't you think her parents, and the Finnish police, would have been interested to know about what went on? Presumably there is still a "missing person" file on her in Finland.

20 years ago Lithuania was still part of the Soviet Union, not exactly the most open society in the world. Are you saying a then Soviet citizen kidnapped a Finnish teenager, brought her to the Soviet Union, gave her Soviet Union papers, etc?

If she knows she came from Finland, why not go back there once she escaped, as opposed to the UK?

Parents deceased? No siblings? Are you now saying no other relatives or friends? It all sounds somewhat suspicious.

[JamesStraker]

In response to JAJ. I would say that the story is more tragic than suspicious. However to clarify a few things, Lithuania became independent in March 1990, my girlfriend left Finland for Lithuania in late 1990. I just said 20 years because its a round number and didnt think it would really make much difference. Yes the Finnish authoroties would have been interested in a missing 13 year old, but for that to happen they have to know about it first. She decided that she wanted to go to Lithuania with this man and told her parents. But I think most people would agree that a 13 year old should not be allowed to make that decision. I know if this happened to my 13 year old daughter I'd be going to the police striaght away. However, although her father did threaten to go to ther Finnish police, he never actually did, but even more ironic if he had of done I would never have met my girlfriend. Now we can sit here and say how her parents should have done more, but they didn't and that cannot be changed. All we can do is try to make things better for the future. Her Father died some ten years ago and her Mother died of cancer a few years ago before I had met my girlfriend. There must be someway she can get a Finnish passport, because surely by law she is a Finnish national. If she walks into a Finnish police station and tells them everything from start to finish they will have to do something with her. As far as I'm lead to believe Finland is a pretty safe, sensible country with a half decent justice and human rights system. She wont be able to walk around for the rest of her life with no existence surely? Maybe we should just go to Finland and hand in all her documents to the police and tell the whole truth, at least there would be no more cloak and dagger existance. I welcome anymore help anyone can give me

[republique]

Just to clarify a few things. Her Father was Finnish, her mother was Lithuanian. She was born in Finland, and lived there from birth until the age of 13. She then lived from the age of 13 until her late 20s in Lithuania, under the false identity created for her. To answer the reply sent by Mr Rusty, yes marrying me would maybe give her a new identity, but how does that solve the problem that her date of birth is incorrect by 6 years? The thought of having to bring up our children and lie to them about their Mother's age for the rest of our lives is just not moraly right in my opinion. Also if I am marrying somebody who is living under false information, am I not also breaking the law by knowingly doing this? I would consider myself an honourable law abiding citizen, and I want to do things the correct way. If we just went to the UK Immigration authoroties and basically told them the whole truth from start to finish, how do you think they would deal with her? It seems like a grey area to me because how can they deport her back to Lithuania if her identity wasn't real in the first place, so officially she wasn't really a citizen of anywhere because this identity isn't real? The only real identity was before she was 13 which was in Finland, so is this not a matter for the Finnish Authoroties aswell? I think my head is going to explode

I don't get the moral outrage of the age issue. Women lie about their age all the time and its none of her children's business what her age is. As for false info and marrying them based on it, this is more plausible for being upset. In life, people's details are mismanaged and never corrected. My mother's passport has DOB different than her driver's license. No one has called her in on it.
If your gf was kidnapped and that is how she grew up with this info, then no one can make her culpable for false information. It would be prudent to get the Finnish citizenship confirmed for the future but it doesn't sound like it is fatal if she doesn't. She clearly has lived this long under the circumstances. What risks would she be subject to if someone found out otherwise? Again, so far, based on your story she didn't do anything wrong but live her life.
In any case, if she really wants to resume her originally identity, then she needs to go to Finland and sort it out. Get a detective or something.

[JamesStraker]

Hi republique,

Although I respect everyone has different opinions, I really do not agree with what you are saying. I would be horrified if I found out my Mother's age was 6 years different from what it really was and I would be equally upset if I suddenly found out she wasn't really born in England, she announced she was really born in Rome. I think it is your children's business what your true age is. I would never dream of telling my children lies about who I really am, whether I could get away with the lie or not. I don't think families should have secrets like that from each other. I don't know how we can preach truth and honesty and expect our familes and children to have respect for us as parents if we are in turn telling them lies about ourselves. The problem aswell with living with lies is in the end people often find out the truth by a different means which makes the situation even worse. Now it may be normal in some countries for people to walk around with false identities, but my passport and driving licence says who I really am not who I am not, and I think we all have a responsibility to hold correct documentation regardless of our past. What you have to realise is that my girlfriend agrees with my view as well, we just came here looking for help not looking for a debate on moral's. We just did not know how to go about it and thought somebody else may of experienced a similar situation with a successful outcome. It appears the one thing me and my girlfriend are guilty of is being naive

[republique]

Hi republique,

Although I respect everyone has different opinions, I really do not agree with what you are saying. I would be horrified if I found out my Mother's age was 6 years different from what it really was and I would be equally upset if I suddenly found out she wasn't really born in England, she announced she was really born in Rome. I think it is your children's business what your true age is. I would never dream of telling my children lies about who I really am, whether I could get away with the lie or not. I don't think families should have secrets like that from each other. I don't know how we can preach truth and honesty and expect our familes and children to have respect for us as parents if we are in turn telling them lies about ourselves. The problem aswell with living with lies is in the end people often find out the truth by a different means which makes the situation even worse. Now it may be normal in some countries for people to walk around with false identities, but my passport and driving licence says who I really am not who I am not, and I think we all have a responsibility to hold correct documentation regardless of our past. What you have to realise is that my girlfriend agrees with my view as well, we just came here looking for help not looking for a debate on moral's. We just did not know how to go about it and thought somebody else may of experienced a similar situation with a successful outcome. It appears the one thing me and my girlfriend are guilty of is being naive

You are really extreme on the moral compass to think that age is such a big deal that you have to honest about. It is only important for military service, eligibility to vote, to drive and being old enough to drink. In any case, based on your standards, then you shouldn't be involved with your gf at all. You are the one making it a debate on morales. I said find a detective.

[taliska]

JamesStraker, just bring your girlfriend to either finland or to the finnish embassy and get her details sorted out. If she is telling the truth then they will be able to track her details and get her citizenship confirmed they won't prosecute her and throw her in jail for what happened a long time ago, but she cannot go on with false documents as with all the Biometric passports etc... coming in then her details may be checked more thoroughly in the future, possibly when she is travelling and you least expect it and this may be highly embarassing. She is aware of the problem and now you are so if you conceal it any furthe it can be deemed fraudulent if you get caught and not have informed the authorities

[Mr Rusty]

The essential point that everyone seems to be agreed on, and which I pointed out in the first place, is that the matter can only be sorted out in Finland.
Hiring somebody to make enquiries beforehand is probably quite a good idea, then you know the strength of your case before you present it to the authorities.

[JamesStraker]

Republik, I am astonished at your dis regard for law, I just hope you don't ever get a job in a passport office, we will all be walking around with false identities. Thanks to the other people who have tried to offer help, we yesterday contacted a Finnish Consulate who is going to speak to the Finnish Embassy on our behalf, I shall let you know the outcome

[Ben]

Thanks James. Looking forward to any update you have.

[republique]

Republik, I am astonished at your dis regard for law, I just hope you don't ever get a job in a passport office, we will all be walking around with false identities. Thanks to the other people who have tried to offer help, we yesterday contacted a Finnish Consulate who is going to speak to the Finnish Embassy on our behalf, I shall let you know the outcome

NO I have high regard for the law.
You are talking about whether it is morally wrong to tell people like your children what you real age is. It isn't illegal to tell them to mind their business and I gave you the areas where it is legally important to know the age in a relative sense. Don't you get on a high horse with me. I am the first to rat out any illegal immigrants in the UK. Lucky for you, I don't think your gf is in that category. If you think so, then I will gladly inform the proper authorities.

[JamesStraker]

No I'm talking about living a life with false documents, is this not against the law? if it's perfectly legal and I've got it all wrong then somebody just tell me and we can just forget about this. But if it is against the law which I thought it was then how can you have a high regard for the law but then say it doesn't matter to have false documents.

"In life, people's details are mismanaged and never corrected. My mother's passport has DOB different than her driver's license. No one has called her in on it."

Just because you can get away with something doesn't make it legal, thats just my view, fair enough if you have a different opinion. We'll just agree to disagree. Not looking for an argument[/quote]

[taliska]

JameStraker good luck to you and your partner. Look forward to the update

[Marco 72]

Is it possible for your girlfriend to apply for a copy of her birth certificate, either via the Finnish embassy in London, or to the relevant authority in Finland directly?

Based on what? Her word that she is not who her documents say she is, but someone else who was kidnapped at age 13 and has no close relatives who can identify her? Seems a bit difficult to me...

Also, it's incorrect to say that EU nationals are not subject to UK immigration control.

[Ben]

Is it possible for your girlfriend to apply for a copy of her birth certificate, either via the Finnish embassy in London, or to the relevant authority in Finland directly?

Based on what? Her word that she is not who her documents say she is, but someone else who was kidnapped at age 13 and has no close relatives who can identify her? Seems a bit difficult to me...

I don't know about in Finland, but in the UK it is possible to obtain anybody's birth certificate, online (and very easily).

Also, it's incorrect to say that EU nationals are not subject to UK immigration control.

It depends on the context. For example:

You're not subject to immigration control if any of the following applies:

* you’re a UK national
* you’re from the European Economic Area or Switzerland
* you’ve claimed asylum and you have been told by the Home Office that you can stay in the UK as a refugee
* the Home Office has told you that you are allowed to stay in the UK indefinitely

[BLK235]

I find it really difficult to believe that 13 years old girl was accepted as been 19 years old, so that just someone could marry her.

And I also find very very unbelievable that nobody, not even her uncle or aunt reported disappearance of 13 years old. Her parents just threatened to do it and changed their mind? Why would they do that? And she did not have any friends, did she? And those friends were too intimidated to say anything to anyone, even their parents? What about her teachers in school? She didn't go to school?

What did her parents say about where her daughter was to their neighbours and relatives? She just gone? Did you report to police, no? Why not? We don't really care about her, she just our daughter, just that and guess what she is our only child, but we are not that bothered. And you explicitly say that her parents threatened to go to police? That's all they did? Just threatened to report missing 13 years old daughter and then decided it wasn’t a good thing to do? And who did they threaten to? Her husband, herself? In Finland do they actually not have a legal responsibility to look after a child till she is 16 or 18 years old? Because if they do they have to report to police or go to jail themselves.

And what about her uncle and aunt? They didn't care either?

And why is it she decided to get clean only after 20 years on and not 13 years ago when as you say she stopped living with her husband. By the way did she divorce her husband? Or is she too scared? Even though she moved to another country, or is her husband now in England too?

I mean only at 33 years old she realised something is not right?
No matter how intimidated you are, will you not let your parents know where you are? An average girl would catch up with her parents at least once a month. And she didn't until they died?

And how did her parents die? Car crash? Cause both parents dead when child been 33 years old, not very common, especially in Finland. You gonna tell me she was a very late child?

Is it you Jamestriker a victim and she did something really sinister and hiding behind this story?

This forum is to debate things and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that this is a very elaborate story to get a second identity.

All explanation you give us - it's a very sad story, but it's very true. If it's so there is nothing to fear - go back to Finland there will be some traces of her living there. Police appeals for missing child maybe? School, kindergarten records? Friends, neighbours? At her age one would expect some of her grandparents been alive.

I think she is just looking for a loophole to get a second identity.
But as I said it's just my personal opinion, cause there are just too many convenient coincidences.

[Marco 72]

I don't know about in Finland, but in the UK it is possible to obtain anybody's birth certificate, online (and very easily).

What good would it do to her to get someone else's birth certificate, unless she can prove it is hers? (Assuming this person exists, of course; to me the story makes little sense).

Also, it's incorrect to say that EU nationals are not subject to UK immigration control.

It depends on the context. For example:

You're not subject to immigration control if any of the following applies:

* you’re a UK national
* you’re from the European Economic Area or Switzerland
* you’ve claimed asylum and you have been told by the Home Office that you can stay in the UK as a refugee
* the Home Office has told you that you are allowed to stay in the UK indefinitely

The website is incorrect. See

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... sibilites/

[Ben]

What good would it do to her to get someone else's birth certificate

None whatsoever. This is not what is being proposed. The advice was for the girl to try and obtain a copy of her birth certificate.

The website is incorrect. See

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... sibilites/

Not quite.

As I mentioned, the term "subject to UK immigration control" is subjective and depends on context. EEA nationals have the right of entry in to the UK, but this is not without condition. Hence why some government texts may describe EEA nationals as being subject to UK immigration control while some may describe EEA nationals as being not subject to UK immigration control.

Incidentally, the website you linked to mentions nothing of the term, "subject to UK immigration control".

Apologies to the OP for going off-topic.