Family member(mother) of an EU citizen visa refusal.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:09 am

Hi all, i am an EU citizen, living in Ireland for 4 years now, my fiance and son are both irish. my mom is living in EU country for more then 30 years but has an ALIEN passport, so she needs visa to enter Ireland. she was here with tourist visa twice so far, but now we decided to bring her to live with us in Ireland as she is alone there and have very little income to live. we applied for a D visa long stay under EU Treaty Rights. submited all nessesary documentation, my payslips, bank statements where we can see my transfers to her, since 2006, but not every month, as i was flying home every 3-4 month, and supporting her with money.letter that i am a house owner, etc.etc. Anyway, we were refused (not enaugh evidence on dependence)they ask to send more bank statements showing money transfers to my mom. Done that, we can appeal only one time, got a refusal again..(applicant has not proven dependecy on the EU citizen).So now i am totaly lost, dont really know what to do. Any help and advises would be very appreciated.

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:52 am

quote from
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 5.en09.pdf

The Directive does not lay down any requirement as to the minimum duration of the
dependency or the amount of material support provided, as long as the dependency
is genuine and structural in character.
Dependent family members are required to present documentary evidence that they are
dependent. Evidence may be adduced by any appropriate means, as confirmed by the Court17.
Where the family members concerned are able to provide evidence of their dependency by
means other than a certifying document issued by the relevant authority of the country of
origin or the country from which the family members are arriving, the host Member State may
not refuse to recognise their rights.

In accordance with Article 3(2), Member States have a certain degree of discretion in laying
down criteria to be taken into account when deciding whether to grant the rights under the
Directive to "other dependent family members". However, Member States do not enjoy
unrestricted liberty in laying down such criteria. In order to maintain the unity of the family in
a broad sense, the national legislation must provide for a careful examination of the relevant
personal circumstances of the applicants concerned, taking into consideration their
relationship with the EU citizen or any other circumstances, such as their financial or physical
dependence, as stipulated in Recital 6.
Any negative decision is subject to all the material and procedural safeguards of the Directive.
It must be fully justified in writing and open to appeal.

Ideas,
Perhaps you and your mother could go to her social-security center
and get them to prepare a document stating she is retired, or
unemployed.
And that she is dependent on you, This would constitute a
"certifying document issued by the relevant authority"

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:12 pm

Thanks acme4242 for ur reply. my mom is still working but for very little money, if she quit now and stay without job at all i afraid i cannot support her while she is in her country, its much easier for us if she would stay with us, but i am not sure when we can apply for a visa again. the other thing that i was made a redundant few month ago... but my fiance is on very good money and he can support us all, but hopefully i will find a job soon, its that i wasnt sure if i aplly again and i am jobless...

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:30 pm

Hi omila250.

You moved to Ireland 4 years ago, correct?

In the country from which you came, were you living in the same household as your mother?

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:46 pm

Yes, i came to Ireland in march 2006, so almost 4 years. and yes, i was living with my mother in the same house.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:57 pm

omila250 wrote:Yes, i came to Ireland in march 2006, so almost 4 years. and yes, i was living with my mother in the same house.

Then your mother is a person described in Article 3(2)(a) of Directive 2004/38/EC and is thus entitled to have her entry and residence facilitated by Ireland.

[url=http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF]Directive 2004/38/EC[/url], Article 3(2)(a) wrote:Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have
in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate
entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in
point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or
members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or
where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the
Union citizen

Your mother should re-apply for an entry visa, this time making explicitly clear in her application that she was a member of your household in the country from which she is coming.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:15 pm

Oh Benifa! Thank you so much for this information! my mom has an appointment in Irish Embassy on Tuesday, she supposed to collect all the documents we submit before, so shell she just leave all the docs in the Embassy and we apply again online and i just send a letter stated everything you just posted earlier? Because if they will ask again for my payslips and letter from work, as i said before i am unemployed at the moment. would that be a problem?

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:24 pm

Benifa,
i also want to ask whether my mom is my direct relative in the ascending line? would that be right? i thought she is falling under the definition in Article 2/2/d. And also if she is a member of my household does this mean that i dont need to prove her financial dependancy on me? Thanks in advance.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:37 pm

Sorry for the short post, in a hurry to leave..

If you can't prove dependency, it may be easier to prove "member of the household". In other words, it is sometimes easier to represent as falling under 3(2) rather than 2(2). The outcome is the same anyway and, so long as you are truthful, it doesn't matter which of the two categories your family member falls under.

Also, you are correct, members of the household need not be also dependant on the EU national.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:21 pm

Thanks Benifa, i already told my mom to get a letter confirming that we were living in the same household. Hopefully it will work this time, we are going to apply again this week. You are doing such a great job by helping people here, God Bless you and your loved once!

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:38 am

Hi Benifa, i have more questions if you dont mind. I am filling up an application form at the moment, and see that there is no more option for EU Treaty Rights... do you know why? Also, on INIS site regarding supporting documentation said that i have to provide evidence of residence in State, and if unemployed Current letter from Department of Social and Family Affairs with full employment history for last 2 years and details of current benefit claims, AND Current letter from FÃ

CMoses · Post by **CMoses** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi there, I had this as well on my application. If you are not registered with Social as unemployed, do this and send them that letter, and also register with FAS and send them that confirmation. Also P60s for the last two years. They were happy with that when I sent it in.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:25 pm

Thanks CMoses, i am registered with Social and with FAS, so that is no problem to get those letters and i also sent my P60 with our first application so as letter from work. but as unemployed at the moment i suppose i have to send this letters anyway...

CMoses · Post by **CMoses** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:50 pm

No prob, send in P60s again if you have copies, just to be double sure. Do you know how to prove dependency and member of household? I am struggling with that. Am going to send in VHI that I paid for for my parents, and also car and insurance I bought for them. I cant think of anything else.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:27 pm

with our second application we are not going to prove that my mother dependant as we fail to prove it first time, but we going to prove that my mom is coming from the same houshold, as Benifa advised me earlier. To prove it, my mom went to the appropriate authorities( i think it was a district office or somth. like this) and got 2 letters, one ussued on her name and one on my name saying that we have the same residential address in Latvia, and this mean that we were living in same household. That is an authorised document in Latvia and will be translated to English and notarize. So i hope that would be enaugh evidence this time.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:49 pm

Got your PM Omila.

Should be fine, afaics.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:13 pm

and what about letter from Social and FAS? Shell i submitt them as well?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:16 pm

omila250 wrote:and what about letter from Social and FAS? Shell i submitt them as well?

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but are you employed at the moment?

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:19 pm

no, as i mentioned before i was made a redundant few month ago. but i was working when we apllied for the first time, it was June.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:23 pm

omila250 wrote:no, as i mentioned before i was made a redundant few month ago. but i was working when we apllied for the first time, it was June.

I understand. Well in that case it would be advisable to provide evidence to the DoJ that you have registered with FÃ

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:26 pm

Great, thanks very much!

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:28 pm

Hello,
Just wanted to update some info. My mom went to the Irish Embassy today to apply for a visa again..We are applying for a D category long stay under EU Treaty Rights. As we failed to prove her dependency last time and had a visa refusal, this time we wanted to prove that she is coming form the same household as me in Latvia. She got all the necessary documents proving that we were leaving in the same house. Anyway, the girl in reception in Embassy was asking for more documents, like paper from my work, my mom said that i've been made a redundant a while ago, but she has a letter from FAS so as from Social Welfare. Then my mom been told that my fiance has to send his bank statement with 4-5 thousand euro to show that we can provide for her, and also that my mom has to write a "Letter of Guarantee" that she is going to come back to Latvia after her visa expires. So receptionist in the Embassy refused to take any documents and application form, saying that there is no category D visa... My question is what to do and where to apply if in Irish Emabassy in Latvia they ask all this docs, which they are not supposed to under Derective 2004/38/EC. I would appreciate all advises please.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:18 am

omila250 wrote:Hello,
Just wanted to update some info. My mom went to the Irish Embassy today to apply for a visa again..We are applying for a D category long stay under EU Treaty Rights. As we failed to prove her dependency last time and had a visa refusal, this time we wanted to prove that she is coming form the same household as me in Latvia. She got all the necessary documents proving that we were leaving in the same house. Anyway, the girl in reception in Embassy was asking for more documents, like paper from my work, my mom said that i've been made a redundant a while ago, but she has a letter from FAS so as from Social Welfare. Then my mom been told that my fiance has to send his bank statement with 4-5 thousand euro to show that we can provide for her, and also that my mom has to write a "Letter of Guarantee" that she is going to come back to Latvia after her visa expires. So receptionist in the Embassy refused to take any documents and application form, saying that there is no category D visa... My question is what to do and where to apply if in Irish Emabassy in Latvia they ask all this docs, which they are not supposed to under Derective 2004/38/EC. I would appreciate all advises please.

Sounds like the girl at the embassy thought your mother was applying for a Visit visa.

It should have been made absolutely clear that an EUTR visa is required, not a Visit visa.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:13 pm

Hi Benifa and thanks for your reply, i called today myself to the Embassy and talk to the girl and find out that she thought that my mom wants a visit visa... but why she thought so i still dont know as she has an application form and a letter from me where she clearly could see what we are applying for... and repeating again that she is doubting that we going to be granted visa after refusal... she made me really upset.. who is she to make a verdict...Thanks again, i will keep posting here any updates.

omila250 · Post by **omila250** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Benifa, just wanted to ask you something. My mother went today to the Irish Embassy to apply for a visa again and has been charged 60 Euro for visa, but as we were applying for EU Treaty visa i was sure its free of charge, but receptionist refused to take any docs without paying for visa. Any advises what i can do about it as i think its pointless to call there and start to explain to her the Directive... Thanks in advance.

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Family member(mother) of an EU citizen visa refusal.

Family member(mother) of an EU citizen visa refusal.