Need expert advise

[phish]

Hi, I had applied for hsmp and was refused in the very first stage (assessment application form), I did not qualify for the points required. Anyway, I did not apply for the E.C./visa application since my application against the qualifying criteria was refused.

I would really appreciate it if someone who knows about this or has an expert opinion on this help me with that question. Thanks in advance.

[tvn_ramesh]

Hi, I had applied for hsmp and was refused in the very first stage (assessment application form), I did not qualify for the points required.

If you mean the Point Based System Calculator did not qualify and refused.. in that case you did the right thing by saying NO...

But if you applied for Tier1(G) visa at the VFS or UKBA and got refusal in that case it might be different..

i think u mean the above.. where you are trying to assess ur eligibility.. so you shd be fine..

[phish]

[quote="tvn_ramesh"][quote="phish"]Hi, I had applied for hsmp and was refused in the very first stage (assessment application form), I did not qualify for the points required. [/quote]

If you mean the Point Based System Calculator did not qualify and refused.. in that case you did the right thing by saying NO...

But if you applied for Tier1(G) visa at the VFS or UKBA and got refusal in that case it might be different..

i think u mean the above.. where you are trying to assess ur eligibility.. so you shd be fine..[/quote]

Firstly, Thanks for your reply. I applied outside of the U.K., sent in an hsmp application (not the E.C. application) to Borders Agency. Had I gotten an approval on the hsmp (not tier 1, btw), I would have had to apply for the E.C./visa. Thats the dilemma

[phish]

Appreciate feedback

[push]

Appreciate feedback

In my opinion, your HSMP application was indeed a VISA application. However as one is not supposed to send Passport with the initial approval I assume it would be difficult for immigration offices other than UK to determine that you applied for this VISA - not suggesting that one should try to exploit the supposed loophole.

If there is some way of updating your VISA application - u should do it

[phish]

[quote="push"][quote="phish"]Appreciate feedback[/quote]In my opinion, your HSMP application was indeed a VISA application. However as one is not supposed to send Passport with the initial approval I assume it would be difficult for immigration offices other than UK to determine that you applied for this VISA - not suggesting that one should try to exploit the supposed loophole.

If there is some way of updating your VISA application - u should do it[/quote]

Thanks Push, but again is what you have stated a fact? logically, I didn't apply for the visa, because I did not send the visa application or my passport, as you mentioned. I'm also considering the fact that no where in the hsmp assessment application or the guide is it mentioned that it is a visa application. However, in the E.C. application, it'd definitely be there. Thanks again for the message.

[vc]

hi you have not stated the year when you applied but the foll is from a previous guidance note of 03..
“Applications made under HSMP are applications for an immigration status and an adverse decision will be recorded and could be taken into account when considering any subsequent UK immigration application you may wish to make.â€

[push]

Appreciate feedback

In my opinion, your HSMP application was indeed a VISA application. However as one is not supposed to send Passport with the initial approval I assume it would be difficult for immigration offices other than UK to determine that you applied for this VISA - not suggesting that one should try to exploit the supposed loophole.

If there is some way of updating your VISA application - u should do it

Thanks Push, but again is what you have stated a fact? logically, I didn't apply for the visa, because I did not send the visa application or my passport, as you mentioned. I'm also considering the fact that no where in the hsmp assessment application or the guide is it mentioned that it is a visa application. However, in the E.C. application, it'd definitely be there. Thanks again for the message.

Obtaining HSMP VISA was a two stage process earlier. The initial approval was requested for the ultimate intention of gaining EC. By your own logic, if you applied for Canadian residency and provided all relevant documents but the passport; if your application was turned down, would you not call it rejection of a VISA application?

[phish]

[quote="push"][quote="phish"][quote="push"][quote="phish"]Appreciate feedback[/quote]In my opinion, your HSMP application was indeed a VISA application. However as one is not supposed to send Passport with the initial approval I assume it would be difficult for immigration offices other than UK to determine that you applied for this VISA - not suggesting that one should try to exploit the supposed loophole.

If there is some way of updating your VISA application - u should do it[/quote]

Thanks Push, but again is what you have stated a fact? logically, I didn't apply for the visa, because I did not send the visa application or my passport, as you mentioned. I'm also considering the fact that no where in the hsmp assessment application or the guide is it mentioned that it is a visa application. However, in the E.C. application, it'd definitely be there. Thanks again for the message.[/quote]Obtaining HSMP VISA was a two stage process earlier. The initial approval was requested for the ultimate intention of gaining EC. By your own logic, if you applied for Canadian residency and provided all relevant documents but the passport; if your application was turned down, would you not call it rejection of a VISA application?[/quote][list=]

Thanks Push. I don't know how it works there, but I will stick with the "better safe than sorry" policy and definitely disclose this in any application.[/list]

[geriatrix]

Permission to differ and here're some reasons why I think so:-

Let's assume that an HSMP application (when it was a 2 stage process, not Tier 1) was made by an applicant and was approved but the applicant never applied for Entry Clearance (i.e.- never filled up a VAF form and never submitted it to any overseas UK diplomatic post). Also assume that he has never travelled to any other country.

Now, how should the applicant answer the question: Have you ever been granted a visa for any country??
My opinion - NO! Because he has never made an EC application (ever). All he applied for (and received a response for) was a letter of approval to certify that he qualified for a said immigration scheme.

This said, UKBA, in the HSMP guidance notes, defines Entry Clearance application as "an application for a visa to allow the individual to enter the UK". So, if the application has never been made, how can one say that it has been refused??

I agree that HSMP is a two stage process, but (in my opinion) - the first stage is approval of eligiblity into the scheme, and, the second stage is an application for Entry Clearance based on such an approval. While HSMP approval stage and EC stage were linked as such that you couldn't apply for latter without the former but (in my opinion) that's where the connection ended. Both were mutually exclusive with respect to how one qualified for each, the assessment criteria and even reasons for approval / failure. (In my opinion), if this was not so, then UKBA had no basis to include the following statement in bold and underline in its HSMP guidance -

27. Please note a successful HSMP application does not automatically guarantee approval of your entry clearance or leave to remain application.

Does this not mean that EC application is a separate application (from HSMP application) and must be submitted to get permission to enter (visa)? From my point of view, it is crystal clear.

Does Tier 1 policy guidance state anywhere that even if an applicant scores 75 points (on parameters) + 10 points (for maintenance) + 10 points (for English) there is no guarantee that the applicant will receive leave to enter (or remain)?? No, because a Tier 1 application is deemed as an application for entry clearance / leave to remain under the PBS - subject to the applicant scoring the required 75+10+10 points to qualify for it.

I am not (yet) entirely conversant with the Canadian PR process and hence my understanding of the procedure limited, but once CIC informs the applicant that his/her application for PR has been approved (including medical etc.), does CIC ask the applicant to make a fresh application for Entry Clearance or to get the vignettee stamped on his passport?? ... Or does it include a rider in the guidance documents similar to what UKBA had ... something like "approval of your PR application does not guarantee that your passport will be stamped with the permanent resident vignette"!!

regards

[phish]

Problem with all of this is that I haven't been able to get any facts. I am also of the opinion that if you do not send your visa application, you really have not been refused on a visa. But I have yet to get any fact on this issue.

[geriatrix]

I would really appreciate it if someone who knows about this or has an expert opinion on this help me with that question. Thanks in advance.

Well, you asked for response(s) from people who know or have an expert opinion about this! I would term the above responses as falling into the latter category of "expert opinion"!

It is also my understanding that when an EC application is refused BHC stamps the applicant's passport with some identification code which is perhaps the EC case/file/reference number and an official record of the EC refusal that can be traced through the UK Immigration & Customs database.

Anyhow, if your question is - Is there any information published by UKBA that could definitely tell you one way or the other?
Then my response would be - Don't think so! Best to write to UKBA directly and share the response on the forum .. for everyone's benefit!

regards