British passport Question

[lana]

I have an Argentinian friend whose mother is British by birth. She was born to British parents in Argentina, had a British passport and did not bother to renew it after 1980's (but never renounced it- it says British Citizen by birth). Her husband is Spanish as well as Argentinian and she got a Spanish passport after marriage (in addition to Argentinian and British passports which she got through her parents). The parents live in Argentina and all have Spanish as well as Argentinian passports.
My friend, who just moved to work in London (he has a Spanish passport so need no WP) approached the British consulate in Argentina and was told that he can not get a british passport through his mother as he was born before 1983, and that he does not qualify as he is not a commonwealth citizen.
I would appreciate if anybody can clarify whether he can get British citizenship through his mother or not, because my understanding is that you become British if you are born to a British parent.

[JAJ]

I have an Argentinian friend whose mother is British by birth. She was born to British parents in Argentina, had a British passport and did not bother to renew it after 1980's (but never renounced it- it says British Citizen by birth). Her husband is Spanish as well as Argentinian and she got a Spanish passport after marriage (in addition to Argentinian and British passports which she got through her parents). The parents live in Argentina and all have Spanish as well as Argentinian passports.

If her father was UK born or naturalised, and her parents were married, she was probably *automatically* British on this basis. Otherwise she must have a certificate of registration as a UK citizen.

My friend, who just moved to work in London (he has a Spanish passport so need no WP) approached the British consulate in Argentina and was told that he can not get a british passport through his mother as he was born before 1983, and that he does not qualify as he is not a commonwealth citizen.
I would appreciate if anybody can clarify whether he can get British citizenship through his mother or not, because my understanding is that you become British if you are born to a British parent.

Having a British parent in itself isn't enough, but:

If he was born between 1961 and 1982 to a British mother - and the mother was born or naturalised in the UK - then he can register as a British citizen by descent.

BN13: Information about registration as a British citizen by certain people born before 1983 to British mothers

However:

1. If he wants to keep his Spanish and Argentine citizenship, he should check that *both* these governments will let him keep his citizenship if he becomes British; and

2. If he lives in the UK for 4 years on his Spanish passport, and gets Indefinite Leave to Remain, he can be *naturalised* as a British citizen instead after one further year (5 years in total). This makes him a British citizen 'otherwise than by descent' and means that future children he has born outside the UK will find it easier to get British citizenship.

The requirement to get Indefinite Leave to Remain may be increased to 5 years however, which would increase the time period for naturalisation. There may also be fiscal reasons to prefer registration, as that does not require an intent to live in the UK.

[lana]

Thanks for the reply JAJ.
The parents of his mother were born in the UK and were married at the time she was born- so she is British.
However, she was not born in the UK, but in Argentina.
neither Spain nor Argentina has any problem with dual nationality, so he can keep these citizenships even if he becomes British.
He has just moved into the UK and I will suggest to him to get a residence permit on his Spanish passport on the basis of his employment here. I was assuming that there is a faster way to become British rather than wait for 5 years, since his mother is British

[bbdivo]

Is there any reason why he wants to get British Citizenship? I mean with a Spanish passport he pretty much has the same rights as a British Citizen except the ability to vote?

[John]

he pretty much has the same rights as a British Citizen except the ability to vote?

Indeed, not even as restricted as that! As an EU Citizen he is entitled to go on to the UK Electoral Register .... and vote in local elections and European elections.

All he is not allowed to vote in is UK Parliamentary elections.

[ppron747]

If Lana's friend is intending to get married and have children at some point, his acquiring British citizenship by naturalisation would give any future children the automatic right to British citizenship themselves, and this could be important in the context of living in the EU. (I don't know whether he would be able to transmit Spanish citizenship to a further generation born outside Spain...)

It is also the case that some government jobs are reserved for British citizens.

[John]

JAJ, this morning you posted a message including a link to BN13. In this case we are told that the person's mother was born in Argentina. They got their British status because of the fact that their parents were both born in the UK.

In BN13 it says :-

3. You would usually be entitled to registration if, at the time of your birth, your mother was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies because she was born, legally adopted (see Note 2), naturalised or registered in the United Kingdom (see Note 3). If your mother did not become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies in this way, you would not normally be entitled to registration, although there are some exceptions.

So whilst BN13 helps quite a few people, I think the person under discussion here is not assisted. That is, even if the law back then, when the person was born, had given the same rights to mothers as to fathers, he would not have been British as his mother acquired her British status by decent.

JAJ, agree?

[JAJ]

Thanks for the reply JAJ.
The parents of his mother were born in the UK and were married at the time she was born- so she is British.
However, she was not born in the UK, but in Argentina.

In that case she's British 'by descent' - and British citizenship does not normally pass beyond the first generation born outside the UK.

neither Spain nor Argentina has any problem with dual nationality, so he can keep these citizenships even if he becomes British.

Are you sure? I don't know for sure, but I thought that Spain (and maybe also Argentina) only allowed dual citizenship with other Spanish/Latin American countries, not in general. He should check this out thoroughly.

[JAJ]

So whilst BN13 helps quite a few people, I think the person under discussion here is not assisted. That is, even if the law back then, when the person was born, had given the same rights to mothers as to fathers, he would not have been British as his mother acquired her British status by decent.

JAJ, agree?

Agree. Only in very limited circumstances does BN13 help someone where the mother is British 'by descent'.

That said - and this is a side issue - before 1983 there was a rule that the child of a Citizen of the UK & Colonies father who was born in a non-Commonwealth country (Republic of Ireland was treated as 'Commonwealth') could be registered as a CUKC within 12 months of the birth, even if the father was CUKC by descent.

On 1.1.83 they became British citizens if they had a right of abode, eg through a UK born parent or grandparent, or British Overseas citizens otherwise. There are quite a few in Argentina, as far as I know.

As Argentina - again as far as I know - gives citizenship to all those born in the country, most of those former CUKCs who have British Overseas citizenship can't benefit in any real way from that status.

[JAJ]

Is there any reason why he wants to get British Citizenship? I mean with a Spanish passport he pretty much has the same rights as a British Citizen except the ability to vote?

Or hold certain public offices, work in certain Civil Service positions, claim benefits (unless he has ILR), and confer British citizenship upon UK born children (again, unless he has ILR).

But there is a more important reason why many people from EEA states choose to become British citizens. After a number of years living in the UK - or possibly sooner - they may feel that the United Kingdom is 'home' and means more to them than their existing nationality.

In this circumstance, despite the fact that there may well be not much day to day difference, such a person probably will want to take out British citizenship as soon as possible.

It also guarantees one's right to return to the United Kingdom in future, should the rights of EEA citizens be restricted under future changes to the immigration laws.

[lana]

Are you sure? I don't know for sure, but I thought that Spain (and maybe also Argentina) only allowed dual citizenship with other Spanish/Latin American countries, not in general. He should check this out thoroughly.

That is not true- I know a couple of my friends who have both Spanish and British passports. And I am an Argentinian who have got a British passport last year.
I agree that a Spanish passport is good enough to live and work in the EU. My friend has just moved into London to work, I was telling him that I naturalised and he thought he should also check if he can get a British passport since he has relatives from his mothers side still living in the UK.
And the logic was if you are entitled to one and it is not that difficult to get, why not? There is no harm in having a British passport and it might benefit in the future.
Seems that it is not that straightforward.

[ppron747]

I can't vouch for its accuracy, but http://www.spainview.com/national.html has the following:

David Searl discusses the regulations for taking out Spanish nationality in this excerpt from his best-selling You and the Law in Spain.

....some countries permit dual nationality, and do not mind if one of their citizens takes on another nationality in addition to the one he was born with. A British citizen, for example, can take another nationality without forsaking his British citizenship. The United States formerly did not permit dual nationality, but now if one of its citizens takes Spanish nationality this is no longer grounds for loss of his US citizenship.

An American woman who marries a Spaniard does not lose her American citizenship, nor does she automatically become Spanish. Her child born in Spain will be able to have Spanish nationality through his father and place of birth, and American nationality through his mother.

Until he reaches the age of 18, that is. Then the child must make a choice. Spanish law does not recognize dual nationality for adults, so the child must either renounce his American nationality, or lose his Spanish nationality.

[lana]

I can't vouch for its accuracy, but http://www.spainview.com/national.html has the following:

David Searl discusses the regulations for taking out Spanish nationality in this excerpt from his best-selling You and the Law in Spain.

....some countries permit dual nationality, and do not mind if one of their citizens takes on another nationality in addition to the one he was born with. A British citizen, for example, can take another nationality without forsaking his British citizenship. The United States formerly did not permit dual nationality, but now if one of its citizens takes Spanish nationality this is no longer grounds for loss of his US citizenship.

An American woman who marries a Spaniard does not lose her American citizenship, nor does she automatically become Spanish. Her child born in Spain will be able to have Spanish nationality through his father and place of birth, and American nationality through his mother.

Until he reaches the age of 18, that is. Then the child must make a choice. Spanish law does not recognize dual nationality for adults, so the child must either renounce his American nationality, or lose his Spanish nationality.

I think he needs to investigate this- if this is true he has lost his Spanish nationality already because he has an Argentinian passport.

[JAJ]

I think he needs to investigate this- if this is true he has lost his Spanish nationality already because he has an Argentinian passport.

Possibly not - Spain apparently makes exemptions for Spaniards holding dual nationality with Latin American countries.

But he should investigate the issue anyway - and if he finds out he can't keep Spanish citizenship and have British citizenship also, he may prefer in time (when he's eligible for naturalisation) to be a British citizen rather than Spanish.