Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

[Obie]

Eldane, i think you are referring to Van der Elst ECJ ruling. It does not apply to the OP, as the OP is not working for a EU based company or established an EU based business, which will enable to travel and work in these countries for a period of time.

Capenter does not apply either, as the OP does not want to gain residence in the spouse's home country without the spouse moving and living in another member state.

The OP is seeking to relocate to another memberstate to work, and he would be unable to do so, except his/her EEA spouse is Exercising treaty rights in that memberstate or he applies for the appropriate work permit.

[lifeart]

Exercisong treaty rights as an EU national means: working, looking for work, studying, being self-sufficient, but for the first three months also being physically present in the territory of a member state, WITHOUT any conditions attached to that stay for the first three months, is exercising treaty rights. In other words: you guys can travel, say to Italy, tomorrow and because you and your wife are physically present in the territory of another member state, you could take up work for, say, one day. The only thing that is required are both of your passports and proof of your marriage.
In practise this is sometimes difficult to do, however. Say, you, the US citizen, wanted to work for an employer the second day of your arrival in Italy (which legally you are entitled to as spouse of an EU citizen physically present in Italy). The employer might have quite a time believing that you would in fact have the right to work, simply because many people just don't know about EU legislation. So the employer, unless they know you or are aware of the pertinent EU laws, may expect you to have a residence permit, before they will recognise your right to work.

[Ben]

Exercisong treaty rights as an EU national means: working, looking for work, studying, being self-sufficient, but for the first three months also being physically present in the territory of a member state, WITHOUT any conditions attached to that stay for the first three months, is exercising treaty rights. In other words: you guys can travel, say to Italy, tomorrow and because you and your wife are physically present in the territory of another member state, you could take up work for, say, one day. The only thing that is required are both of your passports and proof of your marriage.

Precisely.

It is plain and clear in the Directive, I don't know why some people on this thread seem to think otherwise, to be honest. It's quite bewildering.

[republique]

Exercisong treaty rights as an EU national means: working, looking for work, studying, being self-sufficient, but for the first three months also being physically present in the territory of a member state, WITHOUT any conditions attached to that stay for the first three months, is exercising treaty rights. In other words: you guys can travel, say to Italy, tomorrow and because you and your wife are physically present in the territory of another member state, you could take up work for, say, one day. The only thing that is required are both of your passports and proof of your marriage.

Precisely.

It is plain and clear in the Directive, I don't know why some people on this thread seem to think otherwise, to be honest. It's quite bewildering.

If the eu national is working so can his non eu spouse but the non eu spouse can not work if he eu spouse is visiting because he is not exercising treaty rights. If the eu spouse is looking for work, then he has moved to the that country and has taken up residence which is why I said it is not simply presence.
The OP is trying to find a loophole something that he can slink into to work one day here and one day there and it is not possible. I don't see the point of trying to split hairs. There is no way an employer is going to hire someone for one day on this flimsy basis because that would require the EU national to be working in the same country on the one day the non eu national wants to work. It is not enough to be for the presence of the Eu national is not enough unless he is present and intends to reside in that country which requires a whole lot of other evidence to back up that claim.
@OP if you want to work for one day in another country and the employer is willing to look the other way, then feel free but don't think EEA treaty rights is going to support that action.

[Ben]

For goodness sake.

1. An EEA national has the right of residence for up to three months without any conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid passport or National ID card.

2. The family member of the EEA national has the right to accompany the EEA national, during his period of residence in the other Member State.

3. During their period of residence, the EEA national and his family member have the right to equal treatment with nationals of the host Member State.

What is unclear?

[republique]

For goodness sake.

1. An EEA national has the right of residence for up to three months without any conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid passport or National ID card.

2. The family member of the EEA national has the right to accompany the EEA national, during his period of residence in the other Member State.

3. During their period of residence, the EEA national and his family member have the right to equal treatment with nationals of the host Member State.

What is unclear?

He has the right of residence, stopping by for one day does not confer any rights to his non eu spouse. What is so difficult to understand?
Repeating the legislation is not analysis or interpretation.

[Ben]

He has the right of residence, stopping by for one day does not confer any rights to his non eu spouse.

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a
period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to
hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid
passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

[lifeart]

I guess it is maybe time to remember that while we may be British, French, German, etc., etc., we are also EU citizens. This is an actual citizenship, not just some "Mickey-Mouse"-thing. This citizenship confers similar rights that a "normal" citizenship grants: right of residence, the right to vote, the right to stand for office (at least at the local level, as well as for EU parliament), even the right to diplomatic representation, if needed, by any EU consulate other than the one of your home member state, under certain circumstances.
The point? Well, we are not really "foreigners" in each others home member states by virtue of also being EU ciotizens. Thus the right of residence, for instance, is fairly absolute, with few restrictions.
Why am I pointing this out? Because there are still many Europeans that see each other as "foreigners", not really "co-citizens".
I am an EU citizen living in the US, and from this vantage point the EU, as far as its poloitical organisation is concerned, and the US have much in common: a large degree of sovereignty of the member "states", under the umbrella of a central government with certain key jurisdictions and functions. In most other ways they are radically different from each other, especially spiritually.
I am also aware that there are many people that still want to see the EU as merely or mostly an economic union, which of course, it isn't.
From my vantage point the EU, with all of its problems (some of them severe), is a fascinating experiment in the making and probably the only way Europe as a significant entity can survive in the long run.
Sorry for the long rant, but I really feel we are losing sight of the commonalities and the positives.

[republique]

He has the right of residence, stopping by for one day does not confer any rights to his non eu spouse.

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a
period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to
hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid
passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

So?
What I say stands.

[Ben]

So?
What I say stands.

republique, seriously, are you just pulling my leg now or not?

Answer me this:

If an EEA national is resident in the UK on a self-sufficient basis, their non-EEA national spouse is working, do you think an application for a Residence Card submitted by the non-EEA spouse would be granted or refused?

[republique]

So?
What I say stands.

republique, seriously, are you just pulling my leg now or not?

Answer me this:

If an EEA national is resident in the UK on a self-sufficient basis, their non-EEA national spouse is working, do you think an application for a Residence Card submitted by the non-EEA spouse would be granted or refused?

that is not the question from this thread.

[Ben]

So?
What I say stands.

republique, seriously, are you just pulling my leg now or not?

Answer me this:

If an EEA national is resident in the UK on a self-sufficient basis, their non-EEA national spouse is working, do you think an application for a Residence Card submitted by the non-EEA spouse would be granted or refused?

that is not the question from this thread.

No, it's a question I'm asking you.

Anyway, the answer is, as I'm sure you know, yes - the non-EEA spouse of an EEA national who is not working in the UK (but the non-EEA spouse himself is working), would receive a Residence Card upon application.

This is because the EEA national has the right of residence and thus so does her non-EEA national spouse.

That right of residence didn't suddenly appear three months or three years after their initial entry to the UK - it was there since day one, as it is in the case of the OP.

Now do you follow?

[republique]

So?
What I say stands.

republique, seriously, are you just pulling my leg now or not?

Answer me this:

If an EEA national is resident in the UK on a self-sufficient basis, their non-EEA national spouse is working, do you think an application for a Residence Card submitted by the non-EEA spouse would be granted or refused?

that is not the question from this thread.

No, it's a question I'm asking you.

Anyway, the answer is, as I'm sure you know, yes - the non-EEA spouse of an EEA national who is not working in the UK (but the non-EEA spouse himself is working), would receive a Residence Card upon application.

This is because the EEA national has the right of residence and thus so does her non-EEA national spouse.

That right of residence didn't suddenly appear three months or three years after their initial entry to the UK - it was there since day one, as it is in the case of the OP.

Now do you follow?

Again not the question
The question is can the non eu spouse work for the one day the eu non resident is in the country, its no. GET IT?

[Wanderer]

What if the OP's employer or contractee wants to see proof of eligibility of his right to work in this manner, what can he show?

[Ben]

republique, seriously, are you just pulling my leg now or not?

Answer me this:

If an EEA national is resident in the UK on a self-sufficient basis, their non-EEA national spouse is working, do you think an application for a Residence Card submitted by the non-EEA spouse would be granted or refused?

that is not the question from this thread.

No, it's a question I'm asking you.

Anyway, the answer is, as I'm sure you know, yes - the non-EEA spouse of an EEA national who is not working in the UK (but the non-EEA spouse himself is working), would receive a Residence Card upon application.

This is because the EEA national has the right of residence and thus so does her non-EEA national spouse.

That right of residence didn't suddenly appear three months or three years after their initial entry to the UK - it was there since day one, as it is in the case of the OP.

Now do you follow?

Again not the question
The question is can the non eu spouse work for the one day the eu non resident is in the country, its no. GET IT?

You say the question is:

Can the non-EEA national spouse work for the one day the EU national non-resident is in the country.

Are we agreed on that, at least? Splendid.

Right. "EU national non-resident is in the country" doesn't make sense. If the EEA national is in the territory of another Member State, she has right of residence immediately and unconditionally for up to three months. She is a resident in accordance with the conditions of the Directive.

Further, if an EEA national is in the territory of another Member State where she has the right of residence, her non-EEA national spouse has the right to join or accompany her there.

While present in the territory of that Member State and while maintaining the right of residence, both or either the EEA national or her non-EEA spouse have right to equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State. I.E., the right to work, to be self-employed, or to study.

I seem to be repeating myself here and it's honestly getting tiresome. Republique, why don't you have a good read of the Directive? The case of the OP is extremely straightforward yet you seem to be denying that the rights of the spouse of the OP (and of the OP himself) actually exist. Why? Is it because the couple would be only present in the territory of another Member State for one day? Do you feel that the rights provided for in the Directive only "kick-in" after a certain length time? What is it?

[Ben]

What if the OP's employer or contractee wants to see proof of eligibility of his right to work in this manner, what can he show?

• EU Directive 2004/38/EC. (or national transposition, preferably).
• His marriage certificate.
• Proof that his spouse is present in the UK and has been so for less than three months.

[Obie]

I strongly believe that for a non-EEA family memeber of an EEA national to have his/her rights of residence confirmed under the citizens directive, the EEA national would need to be a qualified person, or someone exercising treaty rights.

The EEA national, does not necessarily need to be working, but should nevertheless exercising treaty rights in a non-economically active capacity.

Essentially they should at least hold a comprehensive sickness insurance and some form of evidence that they are self sufficient. Then, and only then, would a memberstate be oblidge to confirm their right of residence and eligibility to seek employment.

Needless to say, without the confirmation mentioned above, the non-EEA family member would find it extremely hard to secure an employment.

For argument sake, lets assume the EEA national doesn't need to be working in a memberstate and can simply accompany a spouse, whenever he /she is on duty.

If that person receives a contract from that company, assuming he manages to convince them he is allowed to work, and doesn't need confirmation of that right from a public body, his time of residence is counted from the day he took employment and signed a contract with that company, regardless of whether or not he is living in that member state.

After three month of signing that contracting, or working, the EEA spouse would be expected to show that he/she is a qualified person, by holding a sickness insurance, in order for the Non-EEA's residence to be considered lawful.

Even if the EEA national claims to be a frontier worker,, which is covered under the directive or community law, she will need to satisfy the authority that she comes to/resides in the other memberstate that he or she is not working at, at least once a week for the authority to grant residence to the spouse.

[Wanderer]

What if the OP's employer or contractee wants to see proof of eligibility of his right to work in this manner, what can he show?

• The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.
• His marriage certificate.
• Proof that his spouse is present in the UK and has been so for less than three months.

But in this case the OP resides with his Norwegian wife in Norway under Norwegian residency rules. No treaty rights are being exercised. Yet!

[republique]

Again not the question
The question is can the non eu spouse work for the one day the eu non resident is in the country, its no. GET IT?

You say the question is:

Can the non-EEA national spouse work for the one day the EU national non-resident is in the country.

Are we agreed on that, at least? Splendid.

Right. "EU national non-resident is in the country" doesn't make sense. If the EEA national is in the territory of another Member State, she has right of residence immediately and unconditionally for up to three months. She is a resident in accordance with the conditions of the Directive.

Further, if an EEA national is in the territory of another Member State where she has the right of residence, her non-EEA national spouse has the right to join or accompany her there.

While present in the territory of that Member State and while maintaining the right of residence, both or either the EEA national or her non-EEA spouse have right to equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State. I.E., the right to work, to be self-employed, or to study.

I seem to be repeating myself here and it's honestly getting tiresome. Republique, why don't you have a good read of the Directive? The case of the OP is extremely straightforward yet you seem to be denying that the rights of the spouse of the OP (and of the OP himself) actually exist. Why? Is it because the couple would be only present in the territory of another Member State for one day? Do you feel that the rights provided for in the Directive only "kick-in" after a certain length time? What is it?

You are absolutely wrong. Just because the EU national can exercise residency rights from day one does not make him a resident. This is your fatal error. I do not need to read the legislation. As I told you repeating it doesn't mean you have interpreted it or analyzed it which you clearly have failed to do.
And as someone just recently pointed out what if the employer wants proof the EU National intends to reside. You want to be a resident, I presume you have at least found a place to stay for a week to find housing to be a resident. If you don't have that or a rental lease then you are not trying to be a resident. Passing through doesn't make you a resident, it makes you a visitor which EU nationals do everyday.

[Ben]

What if the OP's employer or contractee wants to see proof of eligibility of his right to work in this manner, what can he show?

• The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.
• His marriage certificate.
• Proof that his spouse is present in the UK and has been so for less than three months.

But in this case the OP resides with his Norwegian wife in Norway under Norwegian residency rules. No treaty rights are being exercised. Yet!

Yes, but if the couple were to enter the UK, for example, they'd be entering in accordance with the Directive and entitled to work from day one.

[John]

nswelton, as a Moderator here I can see the IP addresses you have used when posting.

Are you currently on holiday? Or is this a real situation you are posting about, or a "student question", for some sort of essay?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

So, scenario is that a EU and their non-EU spouse get on a plane and fly to somewhere like the UK or France or Spain (anywhere that is not the EU person's home country).

For up to 90 days, there are (technically) no prerequisites that must be met for either the EU citizen or the family members of the EU citizen to reside or work in the country. Either of them should be able to work at McDonalds or a photoshoot. The EU citizen has this right directly and the non-EU person has this right solely because of their family relationship with the EU.

You can see this in practice in the UK. The UK issued "EEA family permit" which should (in theory) be issued to ALL non-EU family members, explicitly allows work of any sort in the UK. That is even if the original purpose of the visit to the UK was a weekend trip to see the London Eye.

As was pointed out, the EU person generally has to be present in the country, but can be reading a book on the beach rather than working (sounds like the life!).

In practice it can sometimes be more difficult. If the non-EU spouse wants to work for an employer, the government may require the employer to provide "proof" that the job-applicant is allowed to work. In the UK that proof is in fact the "EEA family permit" I mentioned.

If the family stays for more than 90 days, then the EU person can be required to show they are exercising "Treaty Rights" (such as working or being self-employed) or are self sufficient or are a student. If this is required and the EU person satisfies these requirements, the EU person can stay for longer, as can the non-EU family members.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You are absolutely wrong. Just because the EU national can exercise residency rights from day one does not make him a resident. This is your fatal error. I do not need to read the legislation. As I told you repeating it doesn't mean you have interpreted it or analyzed it which you clearly have failed to do.

Republique, with respect I think you are wrong. You do need to read the legislation. The Directive is clear and national transpositions of it are clear. The EU citizen is resident. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/ for extracts from some of the laws.

And as someone just recently pointed out what if the employer wants proof the EU National intends to reside. You want to be a resident, I presume you have at least found a place to stay for a week to find housing to be a resident. If you don't have that or a rental lease then you are not trying to be a resident. Passing through doesn't make you a resident, it makes you a visitor which EU nationals do everyday.

Legally you are resident from the time you step off the plane. You may not feel resident, and it may not matter in so many ways, but you are resident. And you are required to be treated in the same way as citizens of the member state where you are located (and resident!).

[republique]

You are absolutely wrong. Just because the EU national can exercise residency rights from day one does not make him a resident. This is your fatal error. I do not need to read the legislation. As I told you repeating it doesn't mean you have interpreted it or analyzed it which you clearly have failed to do.

Republique, with respect I think you are wrong. You do need to read the legislation. The Directive is clear and national transpositions of it are clear. The EU citizen is resident. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/ for extracts from some of the laws.

And as someone just recently pointed out what if the employer wants proof the EU National intends to reside. You want to be a resident, I presume you have at least found a place to stay for a week to find housing to be a resident. If you don't have that or a rental lease then you are not trying to be a resident. Passing through doesn't make you a resident, it makes you a visitor which EU nationals do everyday.

Legally you are resident from the time you step off the plane. You may not feel resident, and it may not matter in so many ways, but you are resident. And you are required to be treated in the same way as citizens of the member state where you are located (and resident!).

If you have no intention to be a resident, you are not a resident. You are talking about objectively when the eu person with non eu spouse gets off the plane, can they be considered as one. Sure. Are they? Not if they just plan to be there for the day. And as you just proved my point, it is very unlikely any employer is going to go with this understanding to employ a non eu person with eu spouse as their shadow for one day whatever the legislation says because everyone wants documentation. You see people every day whining how they were already working and their visas have to be renewed and the employer is kicking them into the street because they want an airtight basis to continue employing someone. It is not going work for the OP to work one day with an EU spouse in tow. Plain and simple.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If you have no intention to be a resident, you are not a resident. You are talking about objectively when the eu person with non eu spouse gets off the plane, can they be considered as one. Sure. Are they? Not if they just plan to be there for the day. And as you just proved my point, it is very unlikely any employer is going to go with this understanding to employ a non eu person with eu spouse as their shadow for one day whatever the legislation says because everyone wants documentation

What is your point exactly then? Maybe you should be explicit about it and explain.

You are right - If somebody does not want to be resident, then they do not need to really worry about the details of being somewhere else in Europe for a short day. They are, after all, not required to work during their holiday. In fact they are not required to do anything for visits of less than 90 days.

But if they want to consider themselves resident, then they are free to do so (since in fact they technically are resident). And they can work for the day or so.

If the OP was trying to work at McDonald's for a few days, then indeed he may have trouble proving that he had the legal right to work (except in the UK with the EEA family permit). But since he is working as a freelance photographer, then I doubt there will be any challenges or issues.