What documents needed for Permanent Residence Certificate?

[Monifé]

Hi guys,

Applying for a Permanent Residence Certificate soon. I am a British Citizen(soon to hold British passport) by descent, also an Irish Citizen.

I am a student, just wondering do I need to apply for private health insurance? I currently have a medical card.

Also, what documents do I need to provide with the application?

It only has employee details on the form.

Thanks in advance

[walrusgumble]

Hi guys,

Applying for a Permanent Residence Certificate soon. I am a British Citizen(soon to hold British passport) by descent, also an Irish Citizen.

I am a student, just wondering do I need to apply for private health insurance? I currently have a medical card.

Also, what documents do I need to provide with the application?

It only has employee details on the form.

Thanks in advance

What's the story with the British Nationality laws in relation to nationality by decent? Are you, like in Irish Nationality laws, British as of birth/automatically where a parent or grandparent is British. I know under Irish Nationality laws, you don't need to actually get a passport in order to prove your Irish. (

(You will be aware how complicated the laws are in relation to Ireland and Republic considering it was once in the Empire/Commonwealth)

Anway, you are absolutely definite that you are a British National (please, sorry, I am assuming that you were born in Ireland, so sorry if this looks stupid - maybe the proper question should be how did you get British Nationality by decent)

For Permanent Residency, you will have to show proof that you have exercised your Treaty Rights as a British National in this State for the past 5 years. Documents include p60's, payslips, p21's, letters from all employers. Alternatively, proof of you being a student/or attending school in Ireland for past 5 years. You will normally require recent back statements, letter from landlords (to proove residence, note your passport won't say anything as they are not allowed to put any endoresement on same) Bascially a history of what you have been doing for past 5 years.

Permanent Residency requires, as seen in the preamble, a continous period of exercising your EU Treaty Rights as contained in Articles 6,7,12,13 and 14. Once you have complied with artilces 7, then and only then can you avail of the right to apply for permanent residency, which then is automatic.

Artilce 7 says
All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the
territory of another Member State for a period of longer than
three months if they:

(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member
State; or

(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance
system of the host Member State during their period of
residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover
in the host Member State; or
29.6.2004 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 229/39

(c) are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited
or financed by the host Member State on the basis
of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal
purpose of following a course of study, including
vocational training; and
— have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the
host Member State and assure the relevant national
authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent
means as they may choose, that they have sufficient
resources for themselves and their family members not
to become a burden on the social assistance system of
the host Member State during their period of residence;

(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union
citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a),
(b) or (c).

2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall
extend to family members who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host
Member State, provided that such Union citizen satisfies the
conditions referred to in paragraph 1(a), (b) or (c).3.

For the purposes of paragraph 1(a), a Union citizen who
is no longer a worker or self-employed person shall retain the
status of worker or self-employed person in the following
circumstances:
(a) he/she is temporarily unable to work as the result of an
illness or accident;
(b) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after
having been employed for more than one year and has
registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment
office;
(c) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after
completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than
a year or after having become involuntarily unemployed
during the first twelve months and has registered as a jobseeker
with the relevant employment office. In this case,
the status of worker shall be retained for no less than six
months;
(d) he/she embarks on vocational training. Unless he/she is
involuntarily unemployed, the retention of the status of
worker shall require the training to be related to the
previous employment.4. By way of derogation from paragraphs 1(d) and 2 above, only the spouse, the registered partner provided for in Article2(2)(b) and dependent children shall have the right of residence
as family members of a Union citizen meeting the conditions
under 1(c) above. Article 3(2) shall apply to his/her dependent
direct relatives in the ascending lines and those of his/her
spouse or registered partner.


Relevant provisions in relation to Permanent Residency are Artilce 16 and 17.


So the first question is, can you say for certain, that you have exercised your EU Treaty Rights as a British National for the past 5 years?

[Monifé]

Hi, sorry I should have been a bit clearer.

The reason I am applying for the Permanent Residence Cert is so I can submit it with an application for stamp 4EUFAM for my partner.

I was born in Ireland, am an Irish Citizen, but I am also a British Citizen because my father is, and I was previously on his British Passport.

Did my Leaving Cert in 2006, went to college in september 06, dropped out of that course in dec 07. Worked til May 08. Started college again in Sept 08 and I am still in college until May this year.

Would I need to get a letter from my secondary school, the college I dropped out of aswell as my current college?

I was living with my mum for most of my life up until sept 09 so would I need to get bills from her, is that ok, they would be in her name?

Oh and I was talking to a solicitor today, and they said seeing as I am an Irish and British national, I do not need private medical insurance, is that right??

Thanks again in advance

[Monifé]

Hello again

Just wondering does anyone know the answer to my previous post on this topic.

"Did my Leaving Cert in 2006, went to college in september 06, dropped out of that course in dec 07. Worked til May 08. Started college again in Sept 08 and I am still in college until May this year.

Would I need to get a letter from my secondary school, the college I dropped out of aswell as my current college?

I was living with my mum for most of my life up until sept 09 so would I need to get bills from her, is that ok, they would be in her name?

Oh and I was talking to a solicitor today, and they said seeing as I am an Irish and British national, I do not need private medical insurance, is that right??"

[archigabe]

If you are already an Irish Citizen, you do not need a permanent residence certificate. You also do not require medical insurance, but your spouse will.

[Monifé]

If you are already an Irish Citizen, you do not need a permanent residence certificate. You also do not require medical insurance, but your spouse will.

Benifa told me I needed one, in order to be a British National, in another EU country, exercising my treaty rights, so that I can get a stamp 4EUFAM for my Fiancé.

We are intending to get the stamp 4EUFAM on the basis of partner, rather than spouse, as we would prefer to wait a year or so before getting married.

So would I still need one, to submit with his application? And if so, what documents would I need to submit in regards to my situation posted above.

Thanks in advance

[walrusgumble]

If you are already an Irish Citizen, you do not need a permanent residence certificate. You also do not require medical insurance, but your spouse will.

Benifa told me I needed one, in order to be a British National, in another EU country, exercising my treaty rights, so that I can get a stamp 4EUFAM for my Fiancé.

We are intending to get the stamp 4EUFAM on the basis of partner, rather than spouse, as we would prefer to wait a year or so before getting married.

So would I still need one, to submit with his application? And if so, what documents would I need to submit in regards to my situation posted above.

Thanks in advance

has your partner actually lived with you for 2 years?.solid proof may be needed as anything less may cause alarms in department (ie suspicion thta one is trying to engineer).

at this time, he would fall under article 3.2 and not 2.2. ireland don't recognise registered partners yet, so it would be allowed some discretion, currently, they require 2 years evidence of durable residence so lots of undisputed proof of durable relationship is required!.although not defined, "durable relationship" might be considered to be more than boyfriend/girlfriend

the directive provides that where domestic law is more favourable to their citizens, this can apply. in relation to treatment of irish citizens and non registered partnerships to irish nationals, the minister tends to say no where the partner is illegal unless there were children and finanical commitment eg mortgage etc

therefore, the easiest path would be to get a part time job as well (to meet worker requirement) and get married.The rason i am pointing this out is because, the minister, as seen on website is clear on his position in relation to marriages of irish nationals and illegals and this would apply to non married couples.

whilst you enjoy rights under the directive and treaty as a british citizen on your own account as a student/part time worker/long time resident and being a family member of a british citizen excerising their rights in ireland (your dad, assuming he is residing in ireland ans still part of your family life), you need to make doubly sure you meet criteria to have your own partner here. If your partners residence in ireland is not strong, on his own account, maybe you should hang on until ye achieve stronger grounds under the directive

whats the story in realation to your partners status in this country?, you sound very young. basically, you should put everything in place in to ensure you are actually exercising your treaty rights first.

permanent residency should not be main concern in order to get partner to stay yet, simply the basic level should be achieved first. your spouse may not get permanent residency (after you get it) if he was not your partner for past 5 years (can't say that for 100% certain - either way basic residence stam4eufam for 5 years is achievable)

also speak to another solicitor! you personally won't need medical insurance in order to stay here as (a) your irish and (b) Irish and British traditionally have not really treated each other differently to say central europe, irish and brits for obvious reasons have treated each other almost one in the same long before they entered the eec.

however, if you are a student andwish to have your non eu/non irish family here, you can be sure authorities will want to make it difficult and apply the directive literally. not saying this is right by the way, in light of ecj case law and provisions in the treaty itself, and in light of the fact your father/dependent is here (so you are safe) but it leads to headaches.solution, find the most simple solution

in order to make solid suggestions, get all documents first eg details of yourself and father, put them on a table and figure out on what basis you wish to go forward. it would be handy to get all colleague letters. only when you have full picture should you go near the department . make the application once and do it right

[Monifé]

no he hasnt lived with me for 2 years, we have been together for 1 year and a half and engaged for 6 months.

my partner is an asylum seeker.

I am young 22... hence why we dont want to get married too soon.

not looking for permanent residency for him yet, would be happy with a stamp 4EUFAM, we're hoping to get married in a year or so, so then we can apply under the spouse section.

By the time we hope to apply for the stamp 4EUFAM, I hope to have a job.

So walrusgumble, what do you think is the best solution? To me I think it is going for the stamp 4EUFAM as my partner, I know its a bit more tricky than when you're married, but we are really not in a position to get married yet.

Thanks

[walrusgumble]

no he hasnt lived with me for 2 years, we have been together for 1 year and a half and engaged for 6 months.

my partner is an asylum seeker.

I am young 22... hence why we dont want to get married too soon.

not looking for permanent residency for him yet, would be happy with a stamp 4EUFAM, we're hoping to get married in a year or so, so then we can apply under the spouse section.

By the time we hope to apply for the stamp 4EUFAM, I hope to have a job.

So walrusgumble, what do you think is the best solution? To me I think it is going for the stamp 4EUFAM as my partner, I know its a bit more tricky than when you're married, but we are really not in a position to get married yet.

Thanks

permanent residency matter, good that you realise this as it would be a folly to think it could be achieved yet.

best solution is for him,now, to keep his head down and not to approach department. he will likely (assuming he is nigerian, sorry) be refused asylum. he won't be removed until he gets further applications considered (leave to remain/subsidiary protection and additional application for Form EU1, get your house in order first - prepare to meet the criteria in the directive)

Under Irish law, as an Irish Citizen and considering the brief summary of facts that you have provided, he will have damn all chance of residence on basis of marriage or partnership to an Irish national!!! Its policy to refuse applications where they are asylum seekers and or have deportation orders. intial strong suspicion may arise in burgh quay. have you heard about the couple in Athlone recently? In order to achieve success in this instance (ie asylum seeker spouse, matters such as l
1 length of relationship,
2 family circumstances, eg children of family and or children from other relationship (could they legally be allowed to be leave ireland as other parent may successfully stop this?, the childrens rights and welfare), financial commitments, whether other family members depend on the irish spouse)
3 whether it could reasonably be possible to live elsewhere despite some initial hardship - the applicant would have to make grounds for this - so get a proper immigration solicitor - matters like war area, attitude towards others of different religion and race would be considered
4. what was legal position of spouse at time of marriage, where the family on notice. here this normally means deportation order and wil likely include period as an asylum seeker (whilst asylum seeker period is not illegal, it still means that period is limited and possible to end in potential threat of deportation order)


Whats left for you is your British citizenship, unlike lady in Athlone. You have additional rights under the Directive. However, for family reunification, if you rely on mere partnership and considering the circumstances that you have briefly provided, you may not be able to prove "durable relationship". The Irish, Brits and a few other countries are adamant on the 2 year criteria where "Registered Partnership" under artilce 2.2 is either not recongnised or not applicable, as seen here. (partner would fall under article 3)

I would imagine, in this instance, some form of co-habiting would be required and proof of same. Again, I strongly believe durable relationship would mean more than boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. The Irish are very nose out of joint here about Metock (ie marriage and illegality is not relevant) Ireland is not neccessarily obliged to grant "discounts" to certain relationships that fall under artilce 3, as they don't recognise registered marriages. so this is a matter of fact and not law in the investigation of the case. once it can be shown that there is a durable relationship for at least 2 years and that you can show, to satisfaction of article 7 that you have and are exercising your treaty rights since relationship (which appear to be that you may have) then you have a chance. But, again, I am concerned about the matters you raised in your summary. would the authorities in europe be happy to say that, at this time, this is a durable relationship?

best solution, would be to fall within artilce 2 of the directive (i trust you have access of the legilsation) with regard to durable relationship, i trust you see the pattern and what may be needed in the above

waiting for irish tom to barge in

[Monifé]

Thanks walrusgumle.

We are living together, and have bit of proof of same, but lease and PRTB(which I havnt received yet) is in my name.

Yes heard about the couple in Athlone, which is what frightened me about rushing into marriage in case it does all eventually go wrong.

I believe we could prove our relationship is durable. And if we dont rush into marriage, and do it the way I mentioned, I then also have my family on my side, who could write supporting letters, that would help wouldn't it? Or get them to sponsor us, as more proof that we wouldn't become a burden on the state.

To get off the subject of stamp 4EUFAM, because we have not yet got to that stage yet, do u know what documents I have to provide for the permanent residence certificate. As I was living with my mother for the majority of my life, is bills in her name sufficient as proof of residency? AND would I need letters from all the schools/colleges I have attended in the past 5 years?

Dont worry about IrishTom, he said he wudnt bother me anymore, so hopefully he will keep up his end of the bargain!

So do you think it would be best to get a solicitor to deal with our application?

[walrusgumble]

Thanks walrusgumle.

We are living together, and have bit of proof of same, but lease and PRTB(which I havnt received yet) is in my name.

Yes heard about the couple in Athlone, which is what frightened me about rushing into marriage in case it does all eventually go wrong.

I believe we could prove our relationship is durable. And if we dont rush into marriage, and do it the way I mentioned, I then also have my family on my side, who could write supporting letters, that would help wouldn't it? Or get them to sponsor us, as more proof that we wouldn't become a burden on the state.

To get off the subject of stamp 4EUFAM, because we have not yet got to that stage yet, do u know what documents I have to provide for the permanent residence certificate. As I was living with my mother for the majority of my life, is bills in her name sufficient as proof of residency? AND would I need letters from all the schools/colleges I have attended in the past 5 years?

Dont worry about IrishTom, he said he wudnt bother me anymore, so hopefully he will keep up his end of the bargain!

So do you think it would be best to get a solicitor to deal with our application?

documents needed, letters from school/college and any work. is your dad here in ireland?, if so and he worked, put that in. pretend you don't have irish citizenship for one second, you have rights as a brit to stay here on grounds of being a family member of your dad and on your own basis. usually p60's, bank statements, letter from employer/college covering 5 years suffice.utility bills and other documents /letters proving you lived in ireland is good.bank statements are helpful (have address and proof that you are living in ireland)

get lease etc in joint names, and maybe a joint bank account! yes letters from family and friends willl help. by the time ye make the application, ye might already have 2 years together

[Monifé]

Yeah my dad lives in Sligo and is self-employed, owns a guesthouse, recently turned into a hostel.

Have bank statements with mothers home address.

My Fiancé and I already have a joint bank account

Can I request P60 from Revenue? I am very bad with keeping documents, and have only started keeping them recently. Have car insurance too with my mothers home address on and my name.

Do you think results or certificates from colleges will suffice or will I need to go to them personally and ask for a letter stating when I attended their school/college?

Thanks a mil for your advice, much appreciated

[IrishTom]

If yer mans a genuine asylum seeker, why not wait for his case to processed? If hes legit, he will be given leave to remain.

Seems very dodgy to me.

I see Wlarus is giving you advice on how to get around the law. Its him and his cronies who cream it from the whole asylum debacle.

[Monifé]

Tom: You were the one who said only 0.01% of Nigerians asylum cases are granted.

Nigeria has such a bad name with Ireland, that even though his case his genuine, I don't think they will grant refugee status to him anyway, because the Irish have a preconceived idea about Nigerians.

So, excuse me Tom, if I am thinking about all my options so that I can keep the love of my life with me in my country. Good day

(Oh and walrusgumble is not advising me on how to get around the law or do anything illegal, he is assisting me on how to do things the right way, there is nothing illegal about his advice!)

[walrusgumble]

If yer mans a genuine asylum seeker, why not wait for his case to processed? If hes legit, he will be given leave to remain.

Seems very dodgy to me.

I see Wlarus is giving you advice on how to get around the law. Its him and his cronies who cream it from the whole asylum debacle.

Giving advice on what the law states, is not illegal or helping one to "get round the law". Under no circumstances is she guaranteed in the first place. You will be glad to know that the Minister will fight tooth and nail on this, even with EU law being applicable.


Do yourself a strong favour, there is such thing as defamation, and it is possible to track one down! I have not nor am i associated with anyone "who cream it from the whole asylum debacle". No F8ck off back to work, assuming you have one.

[Obie]

If yer mans a genuine asylum seeker, why not wait for his case to processed? If hes legit, he will be given leave to remain.

Seems very dodgy to me.

I see Wlarus is giving you advice on how to get around the law. Its him and his cronies who cream it from the whole asylum debacle.

Moderators need to get rid of this troublesome creature, before someone gets hurt.

He has not got anything productive to offer, and his presence is not very conducive to the wellbeing of the forum.

[IrishTom]

If yer mans a genuine asylum seeker, why not wait for his case to processed? If hes legit, he will be given leave to remain.

Seems very dodgy to me.

I see Wlarus is giving you advice on how to get around the law. Its him and his cronies who cream it from the whole asylum debacle.

Moderators need to get rid of this troublesome creature, before someone gets hurt. .

No need for threats.

[walrusgumble]

i don't think that is a threat.