Visit visa for Ireland

[Marie B]

I'm British, my husband is Albanian and has a spouse visa. We live in London. We have been invited to a friend's wedding in Ireland this July and I have been trying to find out what he needs to do to apply for a visa. We have booked the hotel and intend to arrive on the friday evening and return to London on the monday.

I haven't had much luck finding information about Irish visas, I have downloaded a visit visa form from http://www.foreignaffairs.gov.ie but there is no additional guidance on the website. It doesn't appear that the Irish embassy in London have a web page so I have no information about making an appointment, submitting the application or what documents we need to take. I have tried phoning but so far no answer.

The application form has lots of questions about occupation, earnings, how he will support himself etc. which is all fine but it also asks for a Referee in Ireland. He doesn't have one. Our friends and their families are Irish but live in London and they are all travelling back for the wedding. Any ideas where we can get more info about applying? Are their any concessions for the spouse of a British/EEA citizen (as with Schengen)?

[bash_h]

Interesting question, I cant seem to find the Irish Embassy London website either!

Your husband does have the right to have an automatic (and free) visa, as you are travelling to another member state of the EU. This is verified at http://europa.eu.int/youreurope/nav/en/ ... ls/en.html

So I guess you would just have to keep trying to ring them and see what the formal procedures are for getting a visa for a husband of a british citizen.

If they get funny with you (ie. ask for referees, bank statements, or that sort of nonsense) try using SOLVIT. They are a (free) problem solving network which will officially communicate with the Irish Embassy for you if they choose to be awkward.

Keep us updated!
All the best

[Marie B]

Thanks bash_h, that link has some very interesting information. I'm particularly happy about the following:

Concerning the issue of a visa

As a member of the family of a European Union or European Economic Area national, the issue of a visa is made easier for you. If you need to get such a document, it should automatically be given to you. The Irish authorities in the country in which you are making the request may only verify whether or not you have the status of a member of the family of a Community national. They may not ask you to provide proof of your means of subsistence (e.g. a certificate of employment or bank statements). They may only refuse to issue a visa on grounds of public policy, public security or public health.

Sounds like it shouldn't be too difficult, no fee, and no need to sort out loads of bank statements and letters from employers. I'll keep trying to contact the Irish Embassy directly. Fingers crossed that:

This visa will be granted free of charge and without undue formalities by the competent consulate authorities.

!!....I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.

[John]

Marie, just when you were so happy for your husband to get his UK spouse visa you are bounced back into thinking about visas! Won't you be pleased in less than three years time when your husband can apply to be British!

Anyway this webpage will at least give you all the contact details. The visa issued by Ireland will indeed be free.

Bash_h posts :-

Your husband does have the right to have an automatic (and free) visa

I like your optimism! The use of the word "automatic"! The reality is that some EU/EEA countries are a nightmare to get visas from, compared to other countries. For example, if requiring a Schengen visa, far better to apply for it from France, as compared to Austria, Italy or Finland ... who will probably issue a visa but for an extremely short period of time. As compared to France which will issue a six month visa on the first application, and 12 months on subsequent applications.

[Marie B]

We are also planning a holiday to Greece for our first wedding anniversary so another visa is required! May have to plan a weekend in France and apply to the French embassy although having looked at the Greek Embassy website it did appear to be quite an easy process. Just need both our passports and marriage certificate.

At the moment I am just enjoying the novelty of being able to plan a holiday at all, after four years of being tied to the UK. Can't wait for my husband to be able to apply for British citizenship, especially as he has family in Greece and Germany and I have family in Australia, future holidays will be so much easier!

[John]

Marie, my wife and step-daughter came on this country on visas in April 2001, and ended up becoming British in June 2004, less than 3 years 2 months after they first arrived in the UK, and of course they could not apply for British Citizenship until the three years were up. Very speedy process!

We have celebrated getting the British Passports by having summer holidays in 2004 and 2005 visiting many countries! In 2004 we went to Netherlands, Spain, Denmark, Norway and Sweden and last year to Netherlands, Hungary, Croatia, Austria, Slovakia and Italy ..... all visa-free of course!

When Schengen visas were still needed, we used French-issued Schengen visas not only to go to France (first) but also for a two-week package tour holiday to Lanzarote in the Canary Islands, part of Spain. Seems like you might do the same ... except substitute Greece for Spain.

When applying for French-issued Schengen visas you can leave all the starred questions unanswered, given that your husband is a family member of an EEA/EU citizen.

[bash_h]

Yep, for future Schengen visits its probably useful to go to the French (or even Dutch) embassies for a visa.

the "Your husband does have the right to have an automatic (and free) visa" isnt as easy as it sounds, you're right John, however if they do start giving you a hard time about it, you can complain to SOLVIT, who do take up these cases and notify the embassy officially of your rights which is likely speed up the process.

[Marie B]

Finally got through to the Irish Embassy and it all sounds very easy. Was asked if we were travelling together (which we are) and was told my husband just needs to go along to the Embassy between 10am -12pm Monday to Friday with the application form, 3 photos, his passport, my passport and our wedding certificate. It takes five working days, no fee.

Less luck with the Greek Embassy as they have an automated appointment booking line. Got halfway through twice, typing in options and passport number, then phone ran out of battery, took ten minutes (at + £1 per minute) and still no appointment! Still just need both passports, marriage certificate, application form and two photos. So far though, I'm quite impressed by the competent consulate authorities!

[John]

Marie, good news about Ireland.

But Greece! As mentioned before, why not apply to France? You might be delighted to see on this French Consulate webpage that because your husband is a Family Member of an EEA Citizen you can book your appointment online!

And you can download the application form by clicking here. And as it says at the bottom of the first page :-

* The questions marked with * do not have to be answered by family members of EU or EEA citizens (spouse, child or dependent ascendant). Family members of EU or EEA citizens have to present documents to prove this relationship.

So lots of questions on the form do not need to be answered.

Food for thought? Indeed French food for thought? A weekend in Paris? Before the Greek trip! France will tend to issue a six-month Schengen visa in the first instance, so do ensure you don't apply too early if you are travelling to Greece in August or later.

[bash_h]

Marie,
Sounds like good news!
I would go with the France solution rather than Greece. Or even Netherlands, I have had some experience with their embassy and they issued my (non-EU) wife a 6-month multiple entry schengen visa within 2 weeks (including postage times)
All the best

[Kayalami]

Marie B,

Note that the Irish Consulate in London is known for 'ingoring' EU protocols in relation to the nature of questions about the financial capability of the non EU spouse. I understand that such is to an extent an 'allowable deviation' due to maintaining the integrity of the Common Travel Area. Don't be surprised to be required to submit bank statements and an employer letter in respect of your Albanian spouse. I appreciate SOLVIT can get involved but by then the relevant occassion may have passed.

[Marie B]

Hi John, Bash_h and Kayalami,

Thanks for all your replies, am having another small dilemma, was hoping you may have some thoughts..

Unfortunately we have not been able to organise a weekend in France, husband is in the process of setting up in business so he has been working every weekend and purse strings are stretched. Combined with that we have been invited to five weddings this year, two of them overseas, so along with associated hen/stag weekends, wedding presents, new hats, we can't afford (in time or money) to fit France in before holiday in Greece in April.

Husband has an appointment at Greek embassy on Friday, 3rd March. He has all neccessary documents + photocopies and has filled in his application form. We are going for 10 days in April (had to cut down from two weeks due to husband's schedule) and hoping to go for a further 7-14 days in August on way home from brother-in-law's wedding in Tirana.

Not sure if what he has filled in in sections 21 - 26 is ok.

21. Main destination - Greece (ok)
22. Type of visa - Short stay (ok)
23. Visa - Individual (ok)
24. Number of entries requested - Multiple (I think this should be two - is this likely to cause a problem?)
25. Duration of stay - visa is requested for 180 days (have doubts about this - does it mean how many days you will be in Greece or does it mean how long you want visa to be valid for? Should he say 30 days?)

If he submits application as above will he have a chance to explain? Greek Embassy don't take phone calls so can't check, having experience of embassies and their often rigid protocols am a bit unsure. If they say no to the 180 days will they reject application outright or will they issue visa for shorter period?

Husband thinks application is fine as it is (he has a devil may care attitude to all things official - i'm more of a scaredy cat and would prefer to toe the line ). Any thoughts??

Thanks for all your help so far,

Marie B

[John]

Marie, I think those answers are fine .... and would stick with Multiple and 180 days.

Don't forget to get Q43 answered, and supply your passport and also the marriage certificate (and if not in English then a translation into English as well).

[Marie B]

Thanks John!

Q43 is filled in and luckily Albania issue European style wedding certificates in Albanian/English/French/Spanish/German/Italian/Greek so we are all sorted there.

Will let you know how husband goes on friday.

[John]

Marie, hope it goes well. At least the application will be free.

[Dawie]

Want to know the worst kept secret in the UK regarding border security? There is NO land border control between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. If you are a visa national, have a visa for the UK and require a seperate one to enter the Republic of Ireland then you can quite easily fly into Belfast and catch a train to Dublin without ANYONE checking your passport for immigration purposes.

It's because of this that I don't quite understand why the Republic of Ireland requires a seperate visa from someone who already holds a visa for the UK. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

[John]

Accepted that border controls are, well, lax but nevertheless anyone caught in the Irish Republic who needs a visa and has not got one can expect not to have a particularly nice time.

At the very least, proceed with caution .... and certainly after considering the risks.

[Dawie]

Indeed, I wouldn't advocate doing this as a rule.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the visa national list for Ireland it is almost identical to that of the UK. Not surprising as they share the common travel area. Many people like to compare the common travel area with the Schengen travel area. However one of the glaring differences between the 2 is that, unlike the Schengen travel area, a visa valid for the UK is not valid in Ireland and vice-versa.

Another anomaly of the common travel area is that there IS immigration control at Dublin airport between the Republic and the UK when you travel from the UK to the Republic. However when traveling the opposite way (say from Dublin airport to Heathrow) there is NO immigration control and you actually arrive in the domestic arrivals hall of Heathrow Terminal 1. Very strange.

[tt]

I wonder if a whole lot from the UK will hop across and "live" in Ireland (considering its simplicity - the shifting, NOT the country ) in order to escape the ID Card requirements? According to those here, and to proposed legislation, only those "living" in the UK will be caught by the ID Card legislation.

[JAJ]

Want to know the worst kept secret in the UK regarding border security? There is NO land border control between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. If you are a visa national, have a visa for the UK and require a seperate one to enter the Republic of Ireland then you can quite easily fly into Belfast and catch a train to Dublin without ANYONE checking your passport for immigration purposes.

It's because of this that I don't quite understand why the Republic of Ireland requires a seperate visa from someone who already holds a visa for the UK. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Sooner or later the sustainability of the Common Travel Area depends on closer co-ordination of Republic of Ireland (ROI) and United Kingdom immigration processes. Which means - in practical terms - that the ROI needs to adopt United Kingdom standards and integrates its border controls into the UK system.

An interesting question - don't know if it has ever been answered - is whether UK ILR is lost by residing in the Republic of Ireland, and if so, how this can be enforced?

[Dawie]

Sooner or later the sustainability of the Common Travel Area depends on closer co-ordination of Republic of Ireland (ROI) and United Kingdom immigration processes. Which means - in practical terms - that the ROI needs to adopt United Kingdom standards and integrates its border controls into the UK system.

IMHO the sustainability of the Common Travel Area actually depends on it being integrated within the bigger framework of the Schengen Agreement.

An interesting question - don't know if it has ever been answered - is whether UK ILR is lost by residing in the Republic of Ireland, and if so, how this can be enforced?

It would be lost as Ireland is a separate country and not part of the UK. Well I guess can be enforced pretty easily. If you live in the Republic of Ireland it will be pretty clear from the fact that your residence, bank accounts, utility bills, etc, etc are all in the Republic of Ireland. Plus the Irish work permit in your passport would make it pretty obvious that you no longer live in the UK.

[tt]

But there are plenty of "Irish" who live over the border in Ireland who work in the UK daily (in Northern Ireland), either as Brit Cits, or Irish Cits (who have a kind of "unwritten" ILR) or in fact, as "foreigners" with ILR.

Those with ILR want to have a foot in both "graves" by having an Irish Work Permit too (or at least a Residence Permit/Visa/whatever they have).

On the other hand, there are those with Irish Work Permits living on the UK side of the border too. So I guess the Irish Work Permit doesn't necessarily give the game away (they're still residing in the UK).

Nor the ILR holder living in Ireland working in Northern Ireland daily would lose the ILR. Nor the ILR holder living in Ireland working in Ireland, I would imagine, since they would be tripping across to the UK regularly, either by land or sea (or ought to, to keep their ILR). But even if they didn't, I guess JAJ's point is that because there are no borders, no record of entry or exit with the UK, how could the ILR be lost with no evidence of residence or lack thereof, sic "how can this be enforced?"

[Dawie]

If you are 3rd-country national with UK ILR, you can certainly work in Northern Ireland, however I cannot see how you will be able to live in the Republic of Ireland on a permanent basis and commute across the border to Northern Ireland as the immigration laws of the Republic of Ireland would not allow you to live in the Republic without a valid work permit for which you would of course need a job in the Republic! Otherwise you would have the status of a visitor in the Republic which would eventually expire making you a visa overstayer in the Republic. I would also imagine that it would be very difficult to rent a house, open a bank account, etc in the Republic if you work in Northern Ireland because you would not have a "settled" visa status in the Republic.

For Irish and UK citizens the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland is meaningless as far as immigration controls are concerned. Unfortunately for 3rd country nationals it is indeed a very real international border with all the implications that go with that including visa restrictions and freedom of movement.

But there are plenty of "Irish" who live over the border in Ireland who work in the UK daily (in Northern Ireland), either as Brit Cits, or Irish Cits (who have a kind of "unwritten" ILR) or in fact, as "foreigners" with ILR.

Don't forget that the majority of people who are born in Northern Ireland are both UK AND Irish citizens by virtue of the fact that they are born in the UK and by virtue of the fact that anyone born on the ENTIRE island of Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen.

[tt]

I don't know all about Irish residency, but I imagine there would be provision for those who don't work in Ireland, but have a regular income (here, from a job over the border), of means; and other categories too.

But another interesting point - again, because of no real border control when passing from South to North, even if one lived in Ireland, even though in reality you overstay if you reside there long-term without a Residence Permit (or whatever you need), can't you just say (and indeed, it might even be right) that you spend the vast majority of time in the North, ie the UK. Who's to know?

[JAJ]

IMHO the sustainability of the Common Travel Area actually depends on it being integrated within the bigger framework of the Schengen Agreement.

I would disagree - the Schengen Agreement is an exercise in collective insanity for so many nations to leave the borders wide open. The United Kingdom has made a wise decision to keep its border controls.