How to retrieve passport from the Immigration Service?

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:54 pm

I am a frequent traveller out of Heathrow and the checks do seem to have decreased in frequency of late - though they still happen and the immigration counters are still there after security ( though frequently unmanned). In my experience they don't tend to be around during very early morning or late night departures. The last time my passport was checked on departure by immigration was in mid December. I am a british citizen but they still matched my face with the photo etc.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:56 pm

Simply show the police report about your lost/stolen passport and your current passport to the immigration officer, explain that you were here on holiday and you lost your passport and all should be well.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:03 pm

Dawie wrote:Simply show the police report about your lost/stolen passport and your current passport to the immigration officer, explain that you were here on holiday and you lost your passport and all should be well.

Yes but you will be then outright lying to an immigration officer about your stay in the UK - not the best of strategies if you have an immigration application pending. Conveniently losing a passport is an old strategy for circumventing immigration control and one that I'm sure they are wise to. If you hand them a shiny passport without any entry clearance do expect a grilling and questions along the lines of "when did you enter the UK" etc.

Bear in mind they can easily pull up your immigration history by name and nationality if they want to probe.

MWazir · Post by **MWazir** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:52 pm

How long have you been in the UK? As you mentioned the passport has been with the HO for 8 years. How many years before that have you spent in the UK? Does the 14 year ILR rule apply to you?

Another point is you mentioned the HSMP approval to be be valid for 3 months. When I had my in-country approval, I had 6 months to switch providing my existing leave to remain had not expired. Has the in-country validity been reduced to 3 months?

badboyz · Post by **badboyz** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:41 pm

i am an overstayer and i have withdrawn my married application from the home office and i had to produce a plane ticket to my home country to get my expired passport back, and then they say they will hold the ticket till i can produce the new passport.

when i get my new passport i have to take it to them, then they will refer me to the removal section; they just want to make sure you are leaving the courtry.

confused1 · Post by **confused1** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:55 pm

Lemess, immigration officials here in UK are often irresponsible. Holding somebody's passport for 8 years

Man.. do some research and you'd find out

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:37 am

MWazir wrote:How long have you been in the UK? As you mentioned the passport has been with the HO for 8 years. How many years before that have you spent in the UK? Does the 14 year ILR rule apply to you?

Unfortunately, it does not. Haven't stretched that far, yet. I would not have done it anyway, what a waste of life.

Another point is you mentioned the HSMP approval to be be valid for 3 months. When I had my in-country approval, I had 6 months to switch providing my existing leave to remain had not expired. Has the in-country validity been reduced to 3 months?

No it hasn't. I am simply not eligible to switch. So that has to be out of country, hence 3 months (2.5 in fact left)

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:43 am

badboyz wrote:i am an overstayer and i have withdrawn my married application from the home office and i had to produce a plane ticket to my home country to get my expired passport back, and then they say they will hold the ticket till i can produce the new passport.

Interesting point! Did you take it to Croydon? Are you still in the UK?

when i get my new passport i have to take it to them, then they will refer me to the removal section; they just want to make sure you are leaving the courtry.

Where did you do this? At Croydon? Those are sneaky ba____ds. I have read somewhere that they lured one overstayer into trap by asking him to attend an interview in connection to his Work Permit application...

No, definitely, approaching those people is not a solution.
I will go according to Dawie - he did convince me about getting the police report. I just hope I won't be arrested on the spot at the police station.

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 am

lemess wrote:
Yes but you will be then outright lying to an immigration officer about your stay in the UK - not the best of strategies if you have an immigration application pending.

I agree that it is not the best way but what the heck is their problem - I am already beyond their borders - why the hell do I have to give them any explanations? I am leaving the country, god damn it! This is why I do not really understand this system to be honest. If I was coming to the UK, that would make sense, but outside the UK borders I am on my own and out of their jurisdiction.

MWazir · Post by **MWazir** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:40 am

Jeff Albright wrote:
lemess wrote:
Yes but you will be then outright lying to an immigration officer about your stay in the UK - not the best of strategies if you have an immigration application pending.
I agree that it is not the best way but what the heck is their problem - I am already beyond their borders - why the hell do I have to give them any explanations? I am leaving the country, god damn it! This is why I do not really understand this system to be honest. If I was coming to the UK, that would make sense, but outside the UK borders I am on my own and out of their jurisdiction.

Consider the implications of you coming back on your new passport to UK on your HSMP stamp. Spent 4 years, applied for an ILR and then, it was found that you misrepresented the facts at a police station and lied to immigration on your way out. How would anyone find out? I dont know, very unlikely given the known efficiency of this system, but there is a chance. Half the problem is living in the constant state of mind that you will be found out, even if will never happen.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:41 am

Jeff Albright wrote:
lemess wrote:
Yes but you will be then outright lying to an immigration officer about your stay in the UK - not the best of strategies if you have an immigration application pending.
I agree that it is not the best way but what the heck is their problem - I am already beyond their borders - why the hell do I have to give them any explanations? I am leaving the country, god damn it! This is why I do not really understand this system to be honest. If I was coming to the UK, that would make sense, but outside the UK borders I am on my own and out of their jurisdiction.

This is a check before you leave the UK and it is expected to catch overstayers which by your own admission you are ! The reason they do this is because the mark in the passport ensures an overstayer cannot return to the country without having to explain this to an ECO when they next try to get in. Whatever the merits of your case I cannot find fault with that as a system.

Besides, you have every intention of returning to the UK so I'm not sure the righteous indignation about the possibility of having to explain your circumstances to an immigration officer before departure is entirely justified.

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:47 pm

lemess wrote: Besides, you have every intention of returning to the UK so I'm not sure the righteous indignation about the possibility of having to explain your circumstances to an immigration officer before departure is entirely justified.

But I am quite happy to explain! There is no problem with it. I will have all the paperwork with me.

The main concern causes the delays at the embassy with issuing the new EC after that. There is little doubt that the EC under the HSMP will be eventually issued. The less adverse marks do I have on my immigration history, the fewer reasons will they have to run checks, refer for decision, etc. There is a person ex-asylum seeker on this board who got his WP visa in one day at the embassy after returning overseas.
If it is going to take 2 months to get the EC my employer will simply cancel the contract and I will lose the job here. Do you see where I am coming from?

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:51 pm

MWazir wrote:
Consider the implications of you coming back on your new passport to UK on your HSMP stamp. Spent 4 years, applied for an ILR and then, it was found that you misrepresented the facts at a police station and lied to immigration on your way out.

MWazir,

Some facts will have to be misrepresented inevitably - for example when I go to the police station for the lost passport report I will have to say that I have lost it. As you understand, I will not be able to tell them that the Immigration lost it. Firstly, because they will probably refer me to the Immigration for their report, secondly, they may just check my background and then arrest me on suspicion of being illegal immigrant.
What will you suggest in this situation?

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:59 pm

Given current heightened awareness of immigration matters, and identity theft, etc, I would not be surprised if there were an automatic procedure to inform IND and other interested parties of reports of loss or theft of non-British passports - not to catch you out, but to stop the "stolen" passport being recycled for use by someone else...

MWazir · Post by **MWazir** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:40 pm

Some facts will have to be misrepresented inevitably

I will not advise you to misrepresent your facts even if you can get away with it. That is your choice entirely to make. Unfortunatly your choices are between the devil and the deep sea. I understand your reluctance to tell the police anything at this stage. You may have a third option.

You mentioned about an ex-asylum seeker coming back to the country on a work permit. That reminds me, there were also people on this forum who went back to their countries on Voluntary Assisted Return and Reintegration Programme through the International Organization for Migration with the HO office closing their files. This basically applies to failed Asylum Seekers who wish to return to their countries. Once they have left and the HO has closed their cases they are free to come back to this country "legally" which many of them have done especially on spouse settlement visa categories. I dont know if this applies to you or not since I know nothing about your immigration route. However IOM is also offering another programme called the Assisted Voluntary Return for Irregular Migrants. I dont know the full details and the implications of this programme but I think its worth your while to find out and looking into. This programme as their website states is open to Irregular Migrants who are in the UK without legal documentation. This includes people who might have been smuggled or trafficked into the UK or who have overstayed their visas.

You are also at risk of loosing your job offer if the HSMP is going to take some time to sort out. I think its far better to loose this job offer and find a legal way to leave this country and come back with a clean record even if it takes you 2 months, were you can then proceed to live and work freely without any fear in the future. This is much better than finding a shortcut full of misrepresentations were you might hold on to your job but end up looking behind your shoulder regularly in the years to come.

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:36 am

MWazir,

Appreciate your reply in so much detail...

Yes, I did try to contact the IOM last week following the recommendation from someone who had dealt with them earlier.
Firstly, I received no reply by e-mail for 3 days already.
Secondly, I called them today and they were very unhelpful. I started telling them exactly what I want, but they did not seem to listen. Whenever I tried to suggest something that I wanted in relation to my situation they would simply brush it aside and cut it by saying "then we will not be able to help you". I tried to ask why they needed the fingerprints for. They would not explain. I said that my passport is NOT at Croydon but probably with Immigration Service. They said "then we will not be able to help you".
Why the hell do they need my fingerprints for? I am not a criminal or an asylum seeker. I just have a simple request - to track down and give me back my passport. Nothing beyond that. Also, I am a bloody Doctor of Sciences and I am not going to let anyone to treat me as an asylum seeker, criminal or even an overstayer - I simply never did anything against the law! On the contrary, I have done everything I had to do and exactly following all the rules. So what is the problem? Let me have my passport back and I will simply go home... It looks like a very simple request but they seem to be making such a big deal out of it and also stipulating.

Therefore, I am not contacting them again. Also I have been told they take too long to organise the return of passports (at least a month but I only have about two weeks).

I am not sure about the employment law says in regard to my contract with my new employer. I have signed the contract with them and they have done that from their side. Now we are legally bound by this contract and they are also applying for the Work Permit for me, as they believe it is not sufficient in their view to have just HSMP (they have convinced themselves that it does not even give me the right to work!). So I might end up having both HSMP and Work Permit, if it is possible and if one does not cancel the other automatically on the Work Permits UK system.
So I do not think they will simply withdraw or terminate the contract with me especially knowing that I must sort the things with the Home Office departments and that is the legal requirement and is therefore entirely beyond my control.

My only concern is that if I was applying under the HSMP I will have to produce some evidence that I will accommodate and support myself without recourse to public funds and if I do not have this job anymore, it will be difficult to prove it and I may end up with the EC refusal due to having insufficient funds (that is the most common reason for the EC refusals probably under these categories)

Cheers

bbdivo · Post by **bbdivo** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:06 am

Jeff Albright wrote:I am not sure about the employment law says in regard to my contract with my new employer. I have signed the contract with them and they have done that from their side. Now we are legally bound by this contract and they are also applying for the Work Permit for me, as they believe it is not sufficient in their view to have just HSMP (they have convinced themselves that it does not even give me the right to work!). So I might end up having both HSMP and Work Permit, if it is possible and if one does not cancel the other automatically on the Work Permits UK system.

That is shocking if you ask me, HSMP has been around for a while now, its not up to an employer to determint whether HSMP is valid to work on or not, surely they will be applying for the work permit through a lawyer and that lawyer should be able to tell them that HSMP is sufficient.

MWazir · Post by **MWazir** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:38 pm

My only concern is that if I was applying under the HSMP I will have to produce some evidence that I will accommodate and support myself without recourse to public funds and if I do not have this job anymore, it will be difficult to prove it and I may end up with the EC refusal due to having insufficient funds (that is the most common reason for the EC refusals probably under these categories)

Most out of country applicants who have an HSMP approval - they not only dont have a job, they have no accomodation, no experience and little idea of how the system works here. A very high percentage of them go through their EC successfully. You have the advantage of being here and knowing what it takes. Assuming you find yourself back in your country through the proper channels and apply for EC, I find it hard to accept that your EC will be refused on the grounds of insufficient funds. Are you saying you are going to show a near zero balance to the EC officer? Have no place to show for your accomodationm, maybe even a temp one with a friend?

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:57 pm

bbdivo wrote: That is shocking if you ask me, HSMP has been around for a while now, its not up to an employer to determint whether HSMP is valid to work on or not, surely they will be applying for the work permit through a lawyer and that lawyer should be able to tell them that HSMP is sufficient.

It is, isn't it?

It is really funny but this is how it is. The lady in the company I am going to work for dealing with all these things completely refuses to listen to what I say. I even pointed out on the website where the official information on the HSMP is given. Even copied this into e-mail.
No, she has decided that she will not trust anything or anyone except the Work Permits UK official confirming this to her, however, despite having been trying to get hold of them for a few weeks already she has been unsuccessful. So she put the WP application through and we are waiting for the decision on it (despite me having the HSMP approval!)
Last week she told me that someone from Work Permits UK told her over the phone that the HSMP actually gives the leave to remain in the UK but not the leave to work!!

I cannot believe this but it looks like the British passport holders from birth have absolutely no idea about the immigration legislation and find it far too complicated to understand!!

Post by **John** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:26 pm

HSMP has been around for a while now, its not up to an employer to determine whether HSMP is valid to work on or not

I think I can understand the problem here!

By itself ... the HSMP approval alone ... the person does not have the right to work in the UK! They also need a suitable employment visa in their passport.

Or put it another way .... how can the employer get a Statutory Defence to any suggestion of employing an illegal worker? By taking photocopies and retaining them, of the HSMP approval document and the employment sticker in the passport. Only having one of those will not give the employer a Statutory Defence!

But the situation is exactly the same for a WP holder. The WP alone is insufficient! The employer also needs a copy of the employment sticker in the passport.

Which brings us round to Jeff's little problem! Without a passport it is impossible to get the employment EC put into the passport. I suspect that Jeff is bald right now ... pulling his hair out in frustration!

Jeff, have you tried contacting your MP?

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 pm

MWazir wrote: Most out of country applicants who have an HSMP approval - they not only dont have a job, they have no accomodation, no experience and little idea of how the system works here. A very high percentage of them go through their EC successfully. You have the advantage of being here and knowing what it takes. Assuming you find yourself back in your country through the proper channels and apply for EC, I find it hard to accept that your EC will be refused on the grounds of insufficient funds. Are you saying you are going to show a near zero balance to the EC officer? Have no place to show for your accomodationm, maybe even a temp one with a friend?

MWazir, what you say is right but I do know at least one refusal of the EC under HSMP due to insufficient funds.
They expect you to have some money that manifests itself in showing that whilst you are looking for job you can support yourself and the family without claiming benefits (although you are not entitled to them anyway).

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:44 pm

John wrote: I think I can understand the problem here!

By itself ... the HSMP approval alone ... the person does not have the right to work in the UK! They also need a suitable employment visa in their passport.

Or put it another way .... how can the employer get a Statutory Defence to any suggestion of employing an illegal worker? By taking photocopies and retaining them, of the HSMP approval document and the employment sticker in the passport. Only having one of those will not give the employer a Statutory Defence!

But the situation is exactly the same for a WP holder. The WP alone is insufficient! The employer also needs a copy of the employment sticker in the passport.

Which brings us round to Jeff's little problem! Without a passport it is impossible to get the employment EC put into the passport. I suspect that Jeff is bald right now ... pulling his hair out in frustration!

Jeff, have you tried contacting your MP?

John, this is clear to me and you but not to my employer. I gave up talking to them about this, they will never listen. So I left it all in their capable hands.
Once they get back to me saying they have got everything they need I will tell them that I will need the visa sticker as well and hopefully by that time I will have some idea where my passport is.
No, I am not frustrated, I just take things as they are - kinda used to it after spending 8 years in this situation!
I tried to contact my MP about my passport and they are on standby. I just want to take some advice from my solicitor tomorrow before I proceed!

Kayalami · Post by **Kayalami** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:35 am

Monsieur Albright,

Appreciate I'm in on this somewhat late in the day but many congratulations on attaining HSMP, WP and presumably in the near future Oz PR. Taking into account our previous discussions surely I expect you to acknowledge some good has (eventually) come to you by virtue of the revamped UK's immigration system has it not?

Is there a reason your country's consular section is unable to issue you an emergency travel document - such are good for 1 way trip home and are usually issued in a short period = up to 1 week and often on the same day. I am not aware of any country that does not issue such subject to proof that you are a national of said country. You can then obtain a full/ standard passport from your country's 'Passport Office' which you can use for EC purposes. On the same note I second John - go for HSMP EC not WP EC.

You can pm me your nationality if you so wish as I would find that were they not operating to such global standards on the matter of travel documents then they must be draconian to the extreme.

Regards - Kayalami

Chess · Post by **Chess** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:04 pm

Congs Sir Dr Jeff Phd.!!

Goodluck with getting a visa and passport

buntosanya · Post by **buntosanya** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:36 pm

Jeff

How far have you gone on your case.

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How to retrieve passport from the Immigration Service?