Need Advice About Divorce(Non EU Spouse on 4EUFAM Stamp)

Rizwan78 · Post by **Rizwan78** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:43 pm

I got Married to EU National in December 2006 and apply for 4EUFAM stamp. But DOJ refused my application in July 2007 like lot of other cases.But i hire a lawyer and got Stamp 4 in Fab2008 for 1 year and then got 4EUFAM Stamp in 2008 dated back from JUNE 2006.So I have 4EUFAM Stamp till JUNE 2012. But problem started now as me and my wife had lots of fights from last few months and she moved out.She is living her own and she rang me last week and asked me that she need money to pay her bills and other stuff.And she asked for big money and she told me that if i will not give her that money she will go to court and apply for Divorce and will write a letter to Immigration to cancel my Visa.And if I will give her money, she will be quite for another year.
My question is if we will apply for separation or Divorse, WILL IT AFFECT ON MY VISA? DO I HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY OR I WILL BE SAFE.I dont want to be blackmail by her.
Pls if some body can answer me.THANKS

dublin3 · Post by **dublin3** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:43 pm

from 2006 till now is she exercising her EU treaty rights?
If yes then do you have evidence that she was a qualified person for all this time?

zafarzafar · Post by **zafarzafar** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:54 pm

Hi rebel82,
If she is not exercising EU treaty right ? what could happen ?

rlow68 · Post by **rlow68** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:02 pm

I will advice you call her and talk to her, so that you can agree, so she can reduce her demands to what you can meet, you need to let her look at the cash request from your own angle, as it will not be good for her to report you, u know this is the excuse the DOJ is looking for, there will be no sympathy for you from DOJ, or alternatively talk to an immigration lawyer if there is anyway out of this, nobody like to be blackmailed but sometimes we have no choice but to play along until you get what you want. Are you working? and is she working also?

Rizwan78 · Post by **Rizwan78** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:16 pm

es we both are working full time till now.She is till in Ireland and working full time.I have Letters from Revenue Office with both our names.And I have Joined Bank statement as well.But if i go to Lawyer and tell him all the story, will it be good for me?

dublin3 · Post by **dublin3** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:47 pm

zafarzafar wrote:Hi rebel82,
If she is not exercising EU treaty right ? what could happen ?

Then she is not qualified person.
At the end of the day when EUfam expires and apply for permanent residence EU citizen have to give evidence that she/he was exercising EU treaty rights for the period of 5 years.
it can be a problem at the end of the day.

dublin3 · Post by **dublin3** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:51 pm

Rizwan78 wrote:es we both are working full time till now.She is till in Ireland and working full time.I have Letters from Revenue Office with both our names.And I have Joined Bank statement as well.But if i go to Lawyer and tell him all the story, will it be good for me?

Hi Rizwan
Do you have her payslips and p60 for the period of three years after your marriage?

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:55 pm

rebel82 wrote:
zafarzafar wrote:Hi rebel82,
If she is not exercising EU treaty right ? what could happen ?
Then she is not qualified person.
At the end of the day when EUfam expires and apply for permanent residence EU citizen have to give evidence that she/he was exercising EU treaty rights for the period of 5 years.
it can be a problem at the end of the day.

hmm this is going to be a regular occurance, as predicted during the kumar case, the family law courts will be busy

Your wife is entitlted to go to courts and seek a maintenance order.

Judicial Separation one has to wait for one year before applying

Divorce in Ireland takes 4 years, so she might go home and seek one

See Article 12 and 13 Directive in relation to where marriages end by divorce and what happens to non eu citizen . It may be important to show that she had exercised her eu rights since then

Try and rekindle with her

IrishTom · Post by **IrishTom** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:31 pm

Rizwan78 wrote:I got Married to EU National in December 2006 and apply for 4EUFAM stamp. But DOJ refused my application in July 2007 like lot of other cases.But i hire a lawyer and got Stamp 4 in Fab2008 for 1 year and then got 4EUFAM Stamp in 2008 dated back from JUNE 2006.So I have 4EUFAM Stamp till JUNE 2012. But problem started now as me and my wife had lots of fights from last few months and she moved out.She is living her own and she rang me last week and asked me that she need money to pay her bills and other stuff.And she asked for big money and she told me that if i will not give her that money she will go to court and apply for Divorce and will write a letter to Immigration to cancel my Visa.And if I will give her money, she will be quite for another year.
My question is if we will apply for separation or Divorse, WILL IT AFFECT ON MY VISA? DO I HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY OR I WILL BE SAFE.I dont want to be blackmail by her.
Pls if some body can answer me.THANKS

She sounds like a bit of a wagon, to be honest. Let me guess, shes an eastern european? Play them at their own game, son. Dont trust some of them eastern europeans women. Mad for money. Get what you want and leave before they the have an opportunity to burn you.

Also, remind her that blackmail is against the law. Sometimes it is better to come clean. She cannot cancel your visa, only the relevant authorities can. Once you start making payments to her, where does it end?

Post by **Obie** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:39 pm

[b]Irish EEA Regulation 2006.( Regulation 10)[/b] wrote:
Retention of the right of residence by family members in the event of divorce, annulment of
marriage
10. (1) (a) Subject to subparagraph (b), a family member of a Union citizen who is a national of a
Member State may retain a right of residence in the State on an individual and personal
basis in the event of the Union citizenâ€™s divorce or annulment of his or her marriage.
(b) Before acquiring an entitlement to permanent residence under Regulation 12, a family
member referred to in subparagraph (a) must satisfy one or more of the conditions
referred to in Regulation 6(2)(a)(i) to (iv).
(2) (a) Subject to subparagraph (b), a family member of a Union citizen who is not a national of a
Member State may retain a right of residence in the State on an individual and personal
basis in the event of the Union citizenâ€™s divorce or annulment of his or her marriage.
(b) Subject to subparagraph (c), a right of residence referred to in subparagraph (a) shall only be
retained where the Minister is satisfied that -

Therefore there is an option for you to apply for retention of rights of residence.

You have to put an end to the blackmail and intimidation, come to an arrangement with her on Spouse Allowance through the right channel, or if she is employed and has adequate resource, and their is no child in your relationship, fight it out in the courts, and you might succeed.

Don't try and delay the divorce and put your life on hold, get the divorce and apply for retention of residence in your own rights. If she wants to go for it, then don't stop her.

Get a medical insurance covering you and her if she is not working at present, and make sure any money you give her is documented, so you can show she has been exercising treaty as a Self- Sufficiency, and you have been providing her needs.

I wish you all the best for the future, and make sure you don't accomodate a situation where intimidation and blackmail is used against you, as you are on the right side of the Law.

If you have evidence of the harrassment, or blackmail, you can use that to your advantage too.

Pakhtoon · Post by **Pakhtoon** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:31 pm

Rizwan78 wrote:I got Married to EU National in December 2006 and apply for 4EUFAM stamp. But DOJ refused my application in July 2007 like lot of other cases.But i hire a lawyer and got Stamp 4 in Fab2008 for 1 year and then got 4EUFAM Stamp in 2008 dated back from JUNE 2006.So I have 4EUFAM Stamp till JUNE 2012. But problem started now as me and my wife had lots of fights from last few months and she moved out.She is living her own and she rang me last week and asked me that she need money to pay her bills and other stuff.And she asked for big money and she told me that if i will not give her that money she will go to court and apply for Divorce and will write a letter to Immigration to cancel my Visa.And if I will give her money, she will be quite for another year.
My question is if we will apply for separation or Divorse, WILL IT AFFECT ON MY VISA? DO I HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY OR I WILL BE SAFE.I dont want to be blackmail by her.
Pls if some body can answer me.THANKS

Thats what happens when you rush into marriage to secure yourself residency !!

Read Obie's advice, the best one you can get.

zafarzafar · Post by **zafarzafar** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:54 pm

Hi All,
Like in Rizwan there are many Non EU Spouses which are been blackmailed every day, Does any body know what is the legal time period that u must be living with your EU spouse to secure your residency ? I heard of 3 years. would your residency be secured if you apply for separation or Inform DOJ that u don't live together any more.
Am not rude or dearly beloved but most of the Eastern European girls are mad into money and they abuse their non EU husbands.
Please share your opinions/knowledge so the people like Rizwan could get benefit of it.

Rizwan78 · Post by **Rizwan78** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:15 pm

I dont have her payslips or P60 as she took everything when she left the house.But as I told you she is still living in Ireland and working full time.She just asked me for money and told me that is she will get that money she will quite for one year and then she want same amount of money after one year.
ANYBODY KNOW THE EXACT EU LAW THAT AFTER HOW LONG OF MARRIAGE NON EU PERSON IS SAFE ?

dublin3 · Post by **dublin3** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:59 pm

zafarzafar wrote:Hi All,
Like in Rizwan there are many Non EU Spouses which are been blackmailed every day, Does any body know what is the legal time period that u must be living with your EU spouse to secure your residency ? I heard of 3 years. would your residency be secured if you apply for separation or Inform DOJ that u don't live together any more.
Am not rude or dearly beloved but most of the Eastern European girls are mad into money and they abuse their non EU husbands.
Please share your opinions/knowledge so the people like Rizwan could get benefit of it.

It is three years but either its you or someone else have to prove that the EU citizen was exercising EU treaty rights till the termination of marriage.

Rizwan78 · Post by **Rizwan78** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:19 pm

Ok everybody, thanks for Advice.

Pakhtoon · Post by **Pakhtoon** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:56 am

zafarzafar wrote:
Am not rude or dearly beloved but most of the Eastern European girls are mad into money and they abuse their non EU husbands.

Then why do non EU guys marry them ??

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:50 am

zafarzafar wrote:Hi All,
Like in Rizwan there are many Non EU Spouses which are been blackmailed every day, Does any body know what is the legal time period that u must be living with your EU spouse to secure your residency ? I heard of 3 years. would your residency be secured if you apply for separation or Inform DOJ that u don't live together any more.
Am not rude or dearly beloved but most of the Eastern European girls are mad into money and they abuse their non EU husbands.
Please share your opinions/knowledge so the people like Rizwan could get benefit of it.

REspectively, you will not get one idota of sympathy. Ye the Eastern Women were mad about the money, but that did not stop those who sought and availed of their, eh, "services". Why didn't they, like normal people, take their time in their relationship and not rush into marriage??? Your deluded if, for what we are to believe in the media, that either spouses here are the victims; yer not! both get something out of it. the victims are the people of genuine marriages. I have seen a number of similar lines about this thing here, I always find it funny how the husband (a man where in their country, would not normally take any crap from a woman) is somehow now a victim of bullying & harrassment etc and how the break down of the marriage is not their fault

Despite the 3 year matter, the Minister is not born yesterday as a trend is starting to set in. One needs to tread carefully as the Minister may wish to interview the wife or the wife may run of to the department and spin some tales of sham marriage etc or that the husband is the one who is bullying etc

THe op will have to show good and hard evidence that there was in fact a decent marriage prior to break up, letters from landlord and family friends may suffice, also utility bills with both names, joint bank statements, evidence of joint tax assessment (one of the main advantages in Irish tax law in relation to marriage is the tax credits, it would look rather strange most married couples did not avail of this - note not all)

Next question, was the wife exercising her rights for at least say 3 years

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:56 am

Rizwan78 wrote:I dont have her payslips or P60 as she took everything when she left the house.But as I told you she is still living in Ireland and working full time.She just asked me for money and told me that is she will get that money she will quite for one year and then she want same amount of money after one year.
ANYBODY KNOW THE EXACT EU LAW THAT AFTER HOW LONG OF MARRIAGE NON EU PERSON IS SAFE ?

Family Law proceedings can be evoked, she may get damn all dosh as their are no children, she earns, length of marriage

People have already pointed out that minimum is 3 years, but that depends on whether or not the marriage was real in the first place. So ye may need to proove this

Pakhtoon · Post by **Pakhtoon** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:23 am

walrusgumble wrote: I always find it funny how the husband (a man where in their country, would not normally take any crap from a woman) is somehow now a victim of bullying & harrassment etc and how the break down of the marriage is not their fault.

+1

rlow68 · Post by **rlow68** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:16 pm

The rules allowed you to divorce after 3 years, but my point is sometimes the DOJ dont follow th rules to the later, if you are working full time and she is also working full time, you just try and agree something with her, and in the next few years you get yr final papers, alternatively get the evidence that she is is blackmailing you, get copies of evidence that she is financially ok and pass this to yr solicitor, it might be handy in the future, but mind you if you allow her to inform the DOJ that she is not married to you anymore because you dont love her and only marry her because of paper, believe me, DOJ wil not listen to your excuse of blackmail, which means the married was fake from the beginning, that is why I initially advice you to play along with her, you 2 agree on your terms financially, that should be the best option. This situation happens to 2 of my friends, they are real marriages but in between the women were being advised by their peers that these guys may have married them not out of love, so it come to taking money from these boys, it was so difficult for them, but they play by the women's rules with common sence until they get their papers, one has got his Irish Passport the other has got indefinite residency, and the women has stop blackmailing them, as they realise these guys has nothing to fear again. so use yr sence and achieve your aim, u are in it already, people can advise you to damn the woman but mind you it is your life, you are even lucky you are working, if you are not working, she wont ask you before doing the divorce and claiming that she has not seen you for the past 2 years. that is it end of story.

Rizwan78 · Post by **Rizwan78** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:35 pm

Ok Guys.I am already trying my best to settle with her on some thing.Lets see. But After how many Years I am 100% safe? Anybody know about that?

Pakhtoon · Post by **Pakhtoon** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:54 am

Its such a shame you are worried more about your 'safety' than about your marriage. Feeling a bit sad about your wife wouldn't go amiss.

Pakhtoon · Post by **Pakhtoon** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:59 am

rlow68 wrote:The rules allowed you to divorce after 3 years, but my point is sometimes the DOJ dont follow th rules to the later, if you are working full time and she is also working full time, you just try and agree something with her, and in the next few years you get yr final papers, alternatively get the evidence that she is is blackmailing you, get copies of evidence that she is financially ok and pass this to yr solicitor, it might be handy in the future, but mind you if you allow her to inform the DOJ that she is not married to you anymore because you dont love her and only marry her because of paper, believe me, DOJ wil not listen to your excuse of blackmail, which means the married was fake from the beginning, that is why I initially advice you to play along with her, you 2 agree on your terms financially, that should be the best option. This situation happens to 2 of my friends, they are real marriages but in between the women were being advised by their peers that these guys may have married them not out of love, so it come to taking money from these boys, it was so difficult for them, but they play by the women's rules with common sence until they get their papers, one has got his Irish Passport the other has got indefinite residency, and the women has stop blackmailing them, as they realise these guys has nothing to fear again. so use yr sence and achieve your aim, u are in it already, people can advise you to damn the woman but mind you it is your life, you are even lucky you are working, if you are not working, she wont ask you before doing the divorce and claiming that she has not seen you for the past 2 years. that is it end of story.

Don't you think 'playing by the woman's rules till you get final papers' in itself is a proof that the marriage was for immigration purposes ?? Or the purpose of marriage has changed at least since you are clinging to the marriage just to keep your residency and not because you want to stay married.

El shaddai · Post by **El shaddai** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:14 am

Hi Pakhtoon,
What decision do you expect the OP to take, to loose wife and loose residency?he need to choose one. if u are in that same situation what will you do?Especially when things are falling apart.

the sustainance of a marriage is not in the hand of man

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:33 am

El shaddai wrote:Hi Pakhtoon,
What decision do you expect the OP to take, to loose wife and loose residency?he need to choose one. if u are in that same situation what will you do?Especially when things are falling apart.
the sustainance of a marriage is not in the hand of man

He is here solely on the basis that

(a) He entered into a genuine marriage to an EU Citizen. Until the non EU spouse obtains rights to reside here on his own account (eg Artilce 12 and 13, 14 etc), then and only then, will he not have to rely on his wife's permission to reside her.
(b) THat EU Citizen is/was exercising their EU RIghts
(c) if marriage ends in a short space of time eg 1-2 years, so too does non Eu spouse's residence (unless there was domestic violence etc and / or child)

The Minister will be entitled to look at the whole period of the relationship and marraige. Spouting out about blackmail?? It would not be in the EU spouse's interest to do this as she would be questioned about possibility of entering a sham marraige and moreover, the would be declared that he marriage was VOID in the first place, where would non eu spouse be then?

THe legislation does provide situations dealing with the break down of marriages. Sadly the best ones do end. But from the tone of op's notes and of a couple of other regular posts in this site, this marriage might have being for purpose of immigration. THat is not was marriage stands for and it is certaintly not what Directive 2004/38 EC and Metock expected/supports. IT simply gives fuel to the Irish/British/Danish fire when they are canvassing for an admendment to EU rules in this area , the victims here being the geniune couples who on first glance may look dodgy but are not.

It is the OP's tone and solely the op's tone in light of published facts that not all the marriages are all that it seems and in light of antidotial evidence that this trend is coming up more and more, that he receives some hostility. Now, if it was a genuine relationship, then some sympathy would be offered.

He should be head smart and go with the flow with the partner and make sure their is a marriage for at least 3 - 3 1/2 years. He will also need to come up with a more credible story of being "blackmailed".

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Need Advice About Divorce(Non EU Spouse on 4EUFAM Stamp)