naturalisation and work in India

[basis]

Aali - I enquired with a invesntment specialist and he told me there are only two categories Resident Indians and no-resident Indians.

Resident Indians cant use PIS and NRIs need to use PIS to make investments in the secondary market in India.

PIOs in India are treated as resident Indians for invesment purpose and hence cannot use PIS. They can directly open normal account. They should notify the change of status to the relevant banks, brokers.

Oops I may be wrong. ICICI direct says a PIO resident in India also needs to use PIS. They have not told me about NRE though.

[basis]

basis,
here are the answers.

1. taxes - you pay taxes in either country , courtsey the double taxation treaties between both countries. Where you pay it depends on where you spend most of your time in that purticular year.
cheers..

Aali - Where can one find info on double taxation treaties. e.g. if I have salary in India, capital gains in india and I have spend more than 183 days in India during that year - do I pay tax on those only in India ? If I have any income in the Uk e.g rent on house property etc do I pay tax in the UK on that or in India ? Is there any website related to that ?

[aali]

one word answer on where to get the info is web....!!You need to go to respective country's tax department website.

To answer your specific question, according to Indian rules, which I guess is similar to the Uk ones, if you have stayed in india for more than half of the year "You have to pay taxes for not only your indian income , but your global income as well in India".

Now if you happen to have been taxed for the same earning in two countries, (depending on the way the tax collection works ), you are eligible for a refund from one of them provided they both are in to double taxation treaty...well do not ask me more about this part, as I have never been in that position and so have not gone in to the depths

To clear up go google...

[basis]

For the benefit of those interested I am giving some useful links below -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_i ... ed_Kingdom

All UK derived income and gains are subject to UK taxation no matter the citizenship nor the place of residence of the individual nor the place of registration of the company. However, the UK income tax liability of an individual who is not resident or ordinarily resident in the UK is limited to any tax deducted at source on UK income, together with tax on income from a trade or profession carried on through a permanent establishment in the UK and tax on on rental income from UK real estate.

Individuals who are both resident and domiciled in the UK are additionally liable to taxation on their worldwide income and gains. For certain individuals, therefore, the UK is a tax haven: Being resident but not domiciled in the UK means that only income and gains remitted to the UK are taxed.
Domicile is a concept not entirely unique but nevertheless peculiar to UK tax law. An individual is domiciled in the UK if (s)he has an abiding attachment to the country. In UK law one's country of residence is a matter of testable fact; one's country of domicile is a grey area in law and is also harder to change.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/BritonsLivingA ... chk=yThhza

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/

When are you no longer a UK resident?

You normally stop being a UK resident from the day after your departure:

if you leave the UK permanently or

you leave for full-time employment abroad for at least a complete tax year (the year that starts on 6 April) provided that: you spend less than 183 days in the UK in any tax year; and your average visits to the UK are less than 91 days a tax year taken over a maximum of four tax years

Will you pay UK tax if you are not a UK resident?
You will still be liable for tax on income that arises in the UK. For example you might:

have income from investments in the UK
have a UK property and rent it out
receive a pension from the UK
However, the country in which you live or work may also want to tax you on the same income, depending on its own taxation laws. You should get in touch with the local tax authorities in the country where you live to check on this.

The UK has double taxation treaties with a number of countries, which are designed to ensure that you only pay tax once on your income.

Depending on the terms of any treaty, if you do pay UK income tax, you may be able to:

reclaim it
get exemption
use your personal allowances to offset some of the tax liability
More about double taxation on the HMRC website (opens new window)

[basis]

A bit of grey area there actually, logically PIS should not be allowed as you are treated as a resident for all financial purposes, i m trying to get a hold on this one..

Aali / anyone else - Did you get any further info on this. I am getting contradictory info.

And yes one more thing is if want to subscribe in primary market then does it have to be NRI DMAT acct or a resident DMAT account. e,g, if one wants to go for IPOs or Bonus Shares or ESOPs then of course PIS is not needed. But then should the DMAT acct be NRI or Resident one. Logically should be resident one but who knows ??

[basis]

Does a PIO card holder need to register or fill special forms to stay in hotels in India ? Does he / she need to carry their passports / PIO cards to move around India or to be able to stay in hotels etc. ?

[basis]

I asked some questions to a tax / legal NRI expert. May be the answers would be useful to others -

I have been working in the UK for past 6 + years on deputation by an Indian company. Last month I took UK citizenship.
>
>a) What are its impacts on taxation in India ? None
>c)I get a part of salary paid in India including PF etc and allowance in
>the UK? Can it continue even after I become UK citizen ? Looks no issue
>c) Now I am returning to India to work from India. I have got PIO card. I
>have been told I dont need employment visa to work in India or to do any business in India. And while in India I can work as a normal resident with PF, pension applicable to me. Is it correct ? Yes
>d) I have ESOPs vested in me by my company in India. Can I excercise those now once my citizenship has been changed and have a PIO card?
>Makes no difference.

[lemess]

Does a PIO card holder need to register or fill special forms to stay in hotels in India ? Does he / she need to carry their passports / PIO cards to move around India or to be able to stay in hotels etc. ?

Hotels tend to ask for passport numbers etc. only if your home address is outside India or you look and sound clearly foreign. Otherwise no one checks your nationality or immigration status etc.

In general because of hotel rates for foreign residents being substantially higher ( in $ terms) within india, if you are of indian origin and resident in india, it's not a good idea to mention your nationality. Just say indian if they even ask ( which they won't unless you have a home address outside India or don't seem Indian). Remember that a lot of Indians do not even have a passport and photo id is certainly not a requirement for staying in hotels.

it's not an issue in India ( unlike Europe where by law they take passport details for everyone checking in).

[basis]

Lemess - There is a register normally in which one has to specify the nationality and sign. Will it be an issue if one writes nationality as Indian there - legally or immigration law wise ?

[basis]

I am referring to http://www.immigrationindia.nic.in/regi ... ements.htm

Form To Be Filled Up By Foreigners Staying At Hotels :

Foreigners visiting India on Tourist Visa and not staying continuously for more than six months in India, are not required to register themselves. However, all foreigners including even tourists and others who are not required to register, are required to fill up a form called Form-C (Rule-14, Registration of Foreigners Rules, 1992) at the time of their stay in any hotel (which includes any boarding-house, club, dak bungalow, rest house, paying guest house, sarai and other premises of like nature). It is the responsibility of the hotel owner to get this form filled up by the foreigner.

Is the above applicable to PIOs / OCIs as well and how tedious is it ?

There is another provision - Report to be made to and by Hotel Keeper:
Rule-14 According to this Rule every hotel keeper/guest house shall submit a copy of the C form duly, filled with the information given by the foreigner in respect of his passport visa and nationality etc. as soon as may be, but not more than twenty four hours of the arrival of the foreigner, to the Registration Officer. If any foreigner is staying with his relatives it is the duty of that person to give report to the nearest police station or Foreigners Registration Officer with full particulars of the foreigners. Non compliance of these instructions/rules are punishable under Section 5 of Registration of Foreigners Act, 1939.

Section 14 This section is a penalty section which is as under : "If any person contravenes the provisions of this Act or of any order made there under, or any direction given in pursuance of this Act or such order, he shall be punished with imprisonment for a period which may extend to five years and shall be liable to fine."

[basis]

An interesting piece of information - Rights of Overseas Citizens of India under Section 7A of Citizenship Act, 1955 Specified

Notification No. SO542(E) Dated 11.04 2005: The Ministry of Home Affairs vide the above notification specifies certain rights to persons registered as Overseas Citizens of India under Section 7A Citizenship Act, 1955 (57 of 1955) namely:

(a) grant of multiple entry lifelong visa for visiting India for any purpose;

(b) exemption from registration with Foreign Regional Registration Officer or Foreign Registration Officer for any length of stay in India; and

(c) parity with Non-Resident Indians in respect of all facilities available to them in economic, financial and educational fields except in matters relating to the acquisition of agricultural or plantation properties.

Registration of Foreigners (Exemption) Amendment Order, 2005

Notification No: SO543(E) Dated 11.04 2005: The Central Government vide Notification No: SO543(E) Dated 11.04 2005 issued by Ministry of Home Affairs notifies the Registration of Foreigners (Exemption) Amendment Order, 2005 which seeks to amend the Registration of Foreigners (Exemption) Order, 1957. The said order states that the provisions of the Registration of Foreigners Rules, 1992, except rules 5, 9 and 15, shall not apply to or in relation to the persons registered as Overseas Citizens of India under the Citizenship Act, 1955

[lemess]

Lemess - There is a register normally in which one has to specify the nationality and sign. Will it be an issue if one writes nationality as Indian there - legally or immigration law wise ?

Hotels in India don't usually ask your nationality unless you seem foreign - they assume you're Indian. As your post indicates

It is the responsibility of the hotel owner to get this form filled up by the foreigner.

And most hotel owners don't do it unless they have reason to believe you are foreign. This is because you either 'look' foreign or give a foreign address. I don't think every foreigner staying in a hotel is expected to be aware of all the forms they may have to fill - it is the hotel's responsibility.
if they ask you don't lie but in most cases they will not if you have an Indian address and don't appear foreign.
Either way there is never a requirement that you have your passport on you - if you just have a passport number and a photocopy that should be enough.

The bottom line here is that the smoothness of your stay as a PIO in india will inevitably depend upon how you navigate the bureaucratic labrynth of rules and regulations - you can make it as tedious and problematic for yourself as you want to but where it clearly is not your reponsibility to be aware of hotel rules etc - it just makes sense to not volunteer to get into more paperwork. That's my view anyway.

[basis]

I asked the question including the DMAT acct for PIO to an expert. The responses are

a) once I am a PIO resident in India, can I open a resident DMAT account or NRI DMAT account for trading in shares ?
The answer to this really depends on the procedures relating to DMAT Account. While it is true you may be a resident, frequent travel or stay abroad may make you a non-resident. You can contact a registered broker to get know the procedures. As for foreign exchange law is concerned, all your deposits can be regular resident deposits as long as you are resident. But, you are obliged to re-designate them into non-resident accounts, once you become a non-resident.

b) once I become a PIO resident in India do I need PIS approval to trade in secondary markets or can I operate normal account without PIS?
As resident you are permitted to trade in Stock Exchange without any approval. PIS applies only for non-residents.

c) If I stay in hotels in India as a resident PIO do I need any specific forms / registration to be done ? Do I need to carry my passport / PIO card every time I travel / stay in hotels ?

Normally a coloumn in the visitor register demands your nationality. This needs to be filled up factually. Carrying travel documents like Passport or identity is important for many reasons and can come handy in emergency situations.

[basis]

Aali / lemess etc - Did you tell your stock broker / banks that your citizenship status has changed (and in aali's case you are now resident in India) . Is there any specific form for that.

[lemess]

Aali / lemess etc - Did you tell your stock broker / banks that your citizenship status has changed (and in aali's case you are now resident in India) . Is there any specific form for that.

Yes and there is no need for a form. You just write them a letter confirming that you have taken UK citizenship and acquired a PIO card.

Bear in mind that for banking purposes you merely have to be a person of Indian origin - which you are whether or not you have a PIO card. You can self certify that status if you need to.

[basis]

Aali / lemess etc - Did you tell your stock broker / banks that your citizenship status has changed (and in aali's case you are now resident in India) . Is there any specific form for that.

Yes and there is no need for a form. You just write them a letter confirming that you have taken UK citizenship and acquired a PIO card.

Bear in mind that for banking purposes you merely have to be a person of Indian origin - which you are whether or not you have a PIO card. You can self certify that status if you need to.

What about the share broker ? For investment purpose did you inform anyone ?

[basis]

Ali / Lemess - Did you guys take any action to remove name from electoral register or family ration card ? If yes what and how.

I am assumming that you were originally from India and had been living there for reasonable time

[lemess]

I haven't bothered to do any of that and to be honest there is no incentive on my part to go trawling the depths of Indian bureaucracy to get my name removed from all sorts of lists after almost 15 years of living abroad. I don't live there and have acquired foreign citizenship - the only relevance for me is things that affect my financial affairs etc.

Stuff like ration card and electoral rolls etc are irrelevant. Whether I get myself removed from them or not makes no difference to me.

[basis]

Understandable lemess. I guess these things matter more for peple who are taking PIO / OCI to return to India for work / settlement. If PIO / OCI is used as glorious visa (which is what most would do I feel) then these things should not matter that much.

Maybe someone who has returned to India like the OP using PIO card can share their experiences. The PIO / OCI cards create a lot of grey areas and the admin mechanisms in India dont have a clue as to what the exact provisions are.

BTW You took the decision to naturalised very late (having stayed 15 years out of India) or was it that you were elsewhere bfore moving to the UK.

[basis]

We are planning to return to India (Pune) sometime end of 2006. Where can I get more info on shipping like costs, packing, insurance, landing in Indian port and customs clearance.


I really need some help from somebody who has already gone back or is planning to. Any links to message boards or forums where people have shared their experiences?


I had a look at http://www.r2iclub.com but this contains mainly posts from the US.


Thanks.

NRI - Look at these -
http://groups.msn.com/R2IClub/general.msnw?all_topics=1
http://groups.msn.com/R2INRIFinanceAndInvestments

Of course info everywhere is from US returnees point because of their majority in Indian diaspora. But we can still find most of the info there as the destination and therefore, most issues are the same.

What I suggest is we can use two threads here -

1. For all discussions related OCI, PIO, dual citizenship etc. - http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic. ... 79&start=0

2. For all R2I related discussions the current thread - http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic. ... 29&start=0

That way we'll not use too much space from UK immigration forums. And all the info can be found by anyone interested at one place. Of course new people would have to spend their time in browing the long threads - but that would be better than having to browse multiple threads using search etc.

[basis]

By the way there is one more forum for OCI / PIO etc. :-
India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

Although with OCI being operational in whatever form - that part of discussion may not be that useful. There is another part PIO / OCI life in India, rights / duties, issues which are quite useful in that mega thread.

[NRI]

thanks basis for the info and merging the thread.


I was interested to hear from people who have returned to India from UK mainly for getting more information on shipping household goods. All the US threads refer to shipping companies in the States.

[basis]

Try asking the same question there. there are a few peopl who have R2Ied from the UK who could respond if you ask. Personally I have done used such services twice - very good service - but since my friends arranged it I dont know anything abt it in terms of further info.

[basis]

A good document useful for Foreign Nationals Working in India - http://www.pwc.com/in/eng/ins-sol/publ/ ... _India.pdf

[basis]

Full convertibility for NRIs

http://markets.moneycontrol.com/india/n ... cle/177876