Working in Gibralter

[Dawie]

Can anyone enlighten me as to whether or not a person holding a settlement visa such as ILR, spouse visa, etc in the UK is allowed to work without restrictions in Gibralter? And if you can, whether or not working there will prejudice the residency requirement for naturalisation?

I have ILR and have a seen a number of interesting employment opportunities advertised for Gibralter but it's proving very difficult to find any information on this topic.

[ppron747]

Can anyone enlighten me as to whether or not a person holding a settlement visa such as ILR, spouse visa, etc in the UK is allowed to work without restrictions in Gibralter? And if you can, whether or not working there will prejudice the residency requirement for naturalisation?

I have ILR and have a seen a number of interesting employment opportunities advertised for Gibralter but it's proving very difficult to find any information on this topic.

British Overseas territories have their own immigration ordinances and are free to set their own policies on immigration, residence, working etc. AIUI, Gibralter operates along broadly similar principles to UK, so far as working is concerned - EU nationals can, others can't, unless they have a WP for which the employer is required to prove that the vacancy can't otherwise be filled. I doubt that having UK ILR/ILE would make any difference one way or the other.

This page on the www.gibraltar.gov.uk lists the countries whose nationals need a visa to enter Gibraltar - it seems unlikely that someone who needs a visa just to visit would be able to work freely...

As to whether working in Gibraltar could affect a UK naturalisation application, the answer must be yes - Gibraltar is not in UK, and you would therefore be absent from UK if you're present in Gibraltar.

[JAJ]

As to whether working in Gibraltar could affect a UK naturalisation application, the answer must be yes - Gibraltar is not in UK, and you would therefore be absent from UK if you're present in Gibraltar.

This is quite correct although not so obvious.

The Crown Dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are also not part of the UK for most purposes however they are part of the UK for nationality purposes, subject to the proviso that persons naturalised as British citizens in the Crown Dependencies will not be able to access EU free movement of labour rights until they have clocked up 5 years in the UK proper.

Gibraltar is a British Overseas territory and hence is not part of the UK for nationality purposes, however under other provisions in the nationality law, virtually all Gibraltarians are full British citizens as well as British overseas territories citizens.

The bottom line is that anyone thinking of a possible move to Gibraltar should naturalise as a British citizen first.

[Dawie]

Yes, in addition to that I read on the immigration websites for Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man it is possible for someone with ILR in the UK to work there without restriction. Not so for Gibraltar it seems.

In any case it would not be practical for me to live in Gibraltar until I get British citizenship because I doubt very much that Spain has any consular representation there because of the politics involved with Gibraltar and consequently it would be very inconvenient for me to get a Schengen visa if I wanted to visit Spain as I would have to come back to mainland UK every time I needed a visa.

[lemess]

Yes, in addition to that I read on the immigration websites for Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man it is possible for someone with ILR in the UK to work there without restriction. Not so for Gibraltar it seems.

Are you sure ?

http://www.immigration.gov.je/ci_uk_workpermits.asp

implies that you would need a work permit if you spent most of your time on the island which you would if you took up full time work.

[bbdivo]

Yes, in addition to that I read on the immigration websites for Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man it is possible for someone with ILR in the UK to work there without restriction. Not so for Gibraltar it seems.

Are you sure ?

http://www.immigration.gov.je/ci_uk_workpermits.asp

implies that you would need a work permit if you spent most of your time on the island which you would if you took up full time work.

That page relates to work permit holders from the UK, etc. Not for people who hold ILR. However having said that (and been a regular visitor to Jersey) I would expect that you would need a permit of some sort even if you had ILR from the UK.

[Dawie]

Believe it or not ILR holders DO NOT require a work permit to work in Jersey:

http://www.gov.je/HomeAffairs/CusAndImm ... permit.htm

[lemess]

that url makes no mention of ILR holders for the UK.

I am assuming that
"Other overseas nationals who have no restrictions attached to their stay - for example, long term residents"
refers to long term jersey residents rather than UK ILR holders. Of course Jersey is not part of the UK.

At the very least there seems to be a grey area there !

[Dawie]

Well, if UK ancestry visa holders AND working holiday makers are allowed to work there, it follows that ILR holders definitely will be allowed. And I think it's pretty well established that the holder of ILR is a long term resident.

[lemess]

And I think it's pretty well established that the holder of ILR is a long term resident.

While we're being pedantic ..let's continue splitting hair:)

I think you're missing my point. Jersey is not part of the UK and "long term resident"probably refers to a jersey resident and need not mean long term UK resident ( which is what an ILR makes you).

The ILR approval letter that I got specifically mentioned that the ILR was for the UK and that special approval may be required to live in the channel islands etc. which are not part of the UK. The same logic applies to British overseas territories.

[JAJ]

I think you're missing my point. Jersey is not part of the UK and "long term resident"probably refers to a jersey resident and need not mean long term UK resident ( which is what an ILR makes you).

Jersey is not part of the UK for most purposes, however it's closely linked to the UK for immigration purposes (because of the Common Travel Area) and it is part of the UK for nationality purposes.

In both respects this is different from the British Overseas territories, including Gibraltar. The British Overseas Territories Act 2002 did not change that.

[JAJ]

Believe it or not ILR holders DO NOT require a work permit to work in Jersey:

You don't need a permit to *work* in Jersey but you do need a permit to purchase or rent housing in the local market. Even British citizens (without Jersey status) need this.

[tt]

Interesting that Jersey is not so close to the UK (as a Crown dependency) politically or culturally as people generally seem to think.

They don't see themselves as part of the EU, though recently, the Federal Court of Justice of Germany ruled on 1 July 2002 (case: II ZR 380/00), that under German law, for the purposes of § 110 of the German Civil Procedures Act (ZPO), Jersey is to be deemed part of the UK and part of the EU as well.

Jersey is currently considering its stance on the signing of European treaties. Should the UK sign up to the single-currency treaty, Jersey may decline and choose to maintain the Pound on its own, endowed as it is with its own mint and vast economic prosperity as a result of its status as one of the world's largest offshore financial centres.

In a survey carried out in the summer of 2000, 700 people were questioned, with 68% supporting independence from the United Kingdom. Senator Paul le Claire lodged a project calling for Jersey's independence shortly thereafter.

--And, when it comes to working there, many of the Jersey websites, do make these sorts of things clear. Many of the conditions of work and so on, DO only relate to Jersey and the Channel Islands, and are acting independently of things such as the ILR of UK and so on. Acts of the British Parliament do not usually apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, unless explicitly stated, and even this is increasingly rare

I mean, how far it can do any of these things is a matter between it, the rest of the Channel Islands, the UK and the EU, let alone what other countries might also think (eg see Germany, above).

[lemess]

Jersey is not part of the UK for most purposes, however it's closely linked to the UK for immigration purposes (because of the Common Travel Area) and it is part of the UK for nationality purposes.

In both respects this is different from the British Overseas territories, including Gibraltar. The British Overseas Territories Act 2002 did not change that.

JAJ my point was that there is nothing in the pages on the jersey government site that explicitly says that a UK ILR will give you an indefinite right to work in Jersey. I understand that a jersey ILR is different.

Indeed the ILR letter that is issued when you're granted it in the UK makes is quite clear.

Of course as you say being part of the CTA and with close links to the UK Jersey has a close relationship for immigration etc. but it still does have its own immigration policy.

Technically people born in Jersey though British citizens cannot benefit from EU provisions ( jersey is not part of the EU) unless they meet some special conditions ( like having lived in the UK for 5 years).

The long and short of it is that a UK ILR may well entitle you to live and work freely in jersey - but I can't see any evidence of that on any of the web sites referenced. If I had to make an assumption I'd assume it doesn't.

I guess someone who wanted to live in the channel islands etc with a UK ILR stamp would also have to account for the fact that this would have an adverse effect on their naturalisation residence requirements which only apply to the UK.

[JAJ]

I guess someone who wanted to live in the channel islands etc with a UK ILR stamp would also have to account for the fact that this would have an adverse effect on their naturalisation residence requirements which only apply to the UK.

Why? Jersey is part of the UK for nationality purposes. Section 50(3) of the British Nationality Act makes it clear that "United Kingdom" for the purposes of the Act includes the Channel Islands and Isle of Man.

The only potential complication is whether the discretionary aspect of naturalisation is handled differently by the Channel Island and Isle of Man authorities compared to the Home Office.

Plus, if you're naturalised in the Channel Islands or IOM, you don't automatically have EU free movement rights.

[lemess]

I guess someone who wanted to live in the channel islands etc with a UK ILR stamp would also have to account for the fact that this would have an adverse effect on their naturalisation residence requirements which only apply to the UK.

Why? Jersey is part of the UK for nationality purposes. Section 50(3) of the British Nationality Act makes it clear that "United Kingdom" for the purposes of the Act includes the Channel Islands and Isle of Man.

But the issue is of the ILR stamp and not of nationality surely ? Does the British Nationality act cover non British nationals and their immigration status ? I am not an expert on this but on the surface this issue doesn't appear to have anything to do with British nationality. My understanding was that the nationality act covers who can be classified as a british citizen and how etc.
We are clearly discussing non British nationals with an ILR stamp here.

[Dawie]

Although this page:

http://www.gov.je/HomeAffairs/CusAndImm ... permit.htm

does not specifically mention the UK, I think it can be assumed that they are referring to the UK as there is no mention of a UK ancestry visa or working holiday visa specifically for Jersey.

In addition to that I have anecdotal evidence from people I know who have worked in Jersey on a working holiday visa issued for the UK.

[tt]

Interesting. If what you say is correct, it does make this http://www.gov.je/NR/rdonlyres/7AAC2805 ... Policy.pdf comment by the Jersey "government" website look strange.

Anyway, wouldn't someone who qualified for a Jersey (or Guernsey) British Islands Passport then every time be able to get as well, a full UK Passport as a "full-blooded" UK Citizen, since their entire time on Jersey (or Guernsey) would, if you were right, qualify towards residency for full UK Citizenship. And thus EU Citizenship.

But I thought that those with British Islands (Jersey) and (Guernsey)passports weren't meant to have it so easy. Why have this sub-category otherwise? It makes the "can't have full UK Citizenship without UK ancestry, or 5 years residence in the UK (proper)" requirement look silly.

Or am I missing something?

[JAJ]

I guess someone who wanted to live in the channel islands etc with a UK ILR stamp would also have to account for the fact that this would have an adverse effect on their naturalisation residence requirements which only apply to the UK.

Why? Jersey is part of the UK for nationality purposes. Section 50(3) of the British Nationality Act makes it clear that "United Kingdom" for the purposes of the Act includes the Channel Islands and Isle of Man.

But the issue is of the ILR stamp and not of nationality surely ? Does the British Nationality act cover non British nationals and their immigration status ?

You suggested that spending time in Jersey might impact on eligibility for naturalisation. That's not my understanding - because Jersey is part of the UK for nationality purposes, time spent there counts just as much as it would do in the UK.

I don't know whether moving to Jersey would cause a person to lose UK ILR, that's an immigration question not a nationality one. But as far as I know, people holding UK ILR are entitled to live and work in Jersey on the same basis as British citizens from the UK.

[JAJ]

Interesting. If what you say is correct, it does make this http://www.gov.je/NR/rdonlyres/7AAC2805 ... Policy.pdf comment by the Jersey "government" website look strange.

Up to now at least, Jersey immigration policy (as far as British citizens is concerned) has concentrated on control of housing access.

I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that Jersey immigration policy has two components:

- Regular immigration legislation (modelled on the UK), which does not apply to British citizens; and

- Housing control legislation, which is an additional layer of immigration control which applies to everyone without local status. It seems the latest round of housing control links employment to having approved housing sorted out (I think Guernsey has something similar).

Anyway, wouldn't someone who qualified for a Jersey (or Guernsey) British Islands Passport then every time be able to get as well, a full UK Passport as a "full-blooded" UK Citizen, since their entire time on Jersey (or Guernsey) would, if you were right, qualify towards residency for full UK Citizenship. And thus EU Citizenship.

But I thought that those with British Islands (Jersey) and (Guernsey)passports weren't meant to have it so easy. Why have this sub-category otherwise? It makes the "can't have full UK Citizenship without UK ancestry, or 5 years residence in the UK (proper)" requirement look silly.

Or am I missing something?

A person who already has British citizenship cannot be naturalised.

And persons naturalised in Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man will have their passports endorsed to restrict EU free movement of labour rights, unless they are otherwise connected with the UK proper.

[tt]

Don't know if you've had aggrieved Jersey passport holders here before, but unless they have UK(proper) parents or grandparents, or have spent 5 years in the UK(proper), they are not entitled to full British citizenship. They get a British Islands (Jersey) passport, with the proviso "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment", as suggested above.

It's been suggested they cannot naturalise as full Britsh citizens, since they already have British citizenship (well, in a sort of way).

But, before British Overseas Territories citizens (BOTCs) were made full British Citizens in 2002, BOTCs were able to go through the ILR and then British citizenship route (ie naturalise). It seems rather arbitrary now that these minority of Jersey residents cannot do this on the basis of 5 years legal residency (or 10 years, in the worst case) in the UK, if the UK in this case (as has been suggested earlier) also includes the British Islands (Channel Islands and Isle of Man). Which would then entiltle them to work a few miles away in France automatically.

Actually, I came across this by chance. http://conductor71.members.beeb.net/cha ... lander.htm. It's worth a read. It shows how a local Jersey resident in this exact position feels very upset about the whole thing.

[tt]

So you can see that the whole 'entry to Jersy', and whether non-UK, non-EU Citizens ought to have work permits and so on, hits a nerve in some parts of Jersey.

Though with legislation like this http://www.immigration.gov.je/laws.asp and this http://www.immigration.gov.je/content/p ... ctions.pdf, you'd think it was not going to be easy to waltz in and work if you didn't have the right of abode in the UK. Perhaps the whole thing is a blur, and in practice, UK(proper) ILR holders will have no problem in Jersey, but
that's the magic of politics rather than real intent, maybe?

[JAJ]

Don't know if you've had aggrieved Jersey passport holders here before, but unless they have UK(proper) parents or grandparents, or have spent 5 years in the UK(proper), they are not entitled to full British citizenship. They get a British Islands (Jersey) passport, with the proviso "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment", as suggested above.

It's been suggested they cannot naturalise as full Britsh citizens, since they already have British citizenship (well, in a sort of way).

People connected with the Crown Dependencies are *full* British citizens. The EU free movement of labour rights issue only affects the way other governments treat them, not the United Kingdom government.

But, before British Overseas Territories citizens (BOTCs) were made full British Citizens in 2002, BOTCs were able to go through the ILR and then British citizenship route (ie naturalise). It seems rather arbitrary now that these minority of Jersey residents cannot do this on the basis of 5 years legal residency (or 10 years, in the worst case) in the UK, if the UK in this case (as has been suggested earlier) also includes the British Islands (Channel Islands and Isle of Man). Which would then entiltle them to work a few miles away in France automatically.

I think you are confused. People from the Crown Dependencies who live in the UK for 5 years can apply to have the "EU free movement of labour restriction" removed from their passport.

I don't know where you get 10 years from.

Although Jersey is part of the UK for nationality purposes as far as the British Nationality Act is concerned, it's not part of the UK for conferring EU free movement of labour rights.

There is an anomaly here in that British citizens connected with British Overseas Territories have got EU free movement of labour rights, and those from the Crown Dependencies have not. However the relevant clauses in the EU Treaties were inserted at the request of the Crown Dependencies authorities, they may be removed in a future treaties revision but that's the situation for now.

[tt]

Interesting. I am listening to what you're saying, and willing to go along with you if I am convinced.

People connected with the Crown Dependencies are *full* British citizens. The EU free movement of labour rights issue only affects the way other governments treat them, not the United Kingdom government.

If they ARE full British citizens, why can't they get normal British passports, like all other full British citizens and British Overseas Territories citizens?(unless they satisfy the ancestry or 5 yr tests, see above).
Agreed, because of the EU agreements at the time, the qualification of "holder is not entitled to benefit from European Community provisions relating to employment or establishment" might have to still go in their normal UK passports.

No, the reason the passports are different, amongst other things surely is that, without drawing too much on any similarities with the BOTC passport, it is a sign of a kind of Belonger Status to the territories of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. And a way for the British government to distinguish them, and this is done entirely under the auspices of "UK law", and not EU law ie, affecting the way the UK Govt treats them.

Why do it otherwise?

I don't know where you get 10 years from.

Oh, that was a reference to 10 years legal stay (naturalisation), where the 5 years (needing ILR formalised to work) didn't apply, under the argument that the Jersey citizen had a different citizen status to the full UK citizen and might have rights under residency requirements, that's all.

I think you are confused. People from the Crown Dependencies who live in the UK for 5 years can apply to have the "EU free movement of labour restriction" removed from their passport.

Not confused. Just pressing arguments, as we all must do to get things moving forward. Willing to absorb all info of course, and willing to be convinced otherwise! Interesting that it is indeed the way the UK Govt treats them (Channel Islanders and "Manxpersons") that leads to the distinction in Protocol No. 3 of the 1972 Act of Accession http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_d ... l=guichett

There is an anomaly here in that British citizens connected with British Overseas Territories have got EU free movement of labour rights, and those from the Crown Dependencies have not. However the relevant clauses in the EU Treaties were inserted at the request of the Crown Dependencies authorities, they may be removed in a future treaties revision but that's the situation for now.

What's your opinion on this, if I may ask?

[tt]

To follow up on point of the original topic here, just to make all the above useful to us all, because I think you've made some interesting points, would I be right in summarising that you (JAJ) are saying that:-

1. a UK Permanent Resident (ILR) holder:-
a. doesn't need any work or residence permit to operate/live in Jersey long-term.
b. can continue their residence time accumulation while there (so 4 years UK mainland leading to ILR, subsequently 1 year Jersey = eligibility for British Citizenship not just for a Jersey passport, but a normal UK one).

2. a work permit (and so on) holder building up residence time for ILR:-
a. doesn't need any work or residence permit to operate/live in Jersey long-term.
b. can continue their residence time accumulation while there (so 2 years UK mainland, 2 years Jersey = eligibility for ILR in the UK mainland/Jersey (or both)).

This is because the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are caught up in the definition of UK in the Nationality Act, and presumbly other legislation.

(and that Dawie agrees with the above, but lemess and bbdivo disagree - lemess's ILR approval letter specifically mentioned that the ILR was for the UK and that special approval may be required to live in the Channel Islands etc. which are not part of the UK). And if Jersey is closely linked to the UK mainland for immigration purposes, then this http://www.immigration.gov.je/content/p ... ctions.pdf
is interesting, because it looks as if it is going in it's own direction, though replicating many of the UK mainland policies.

By the way...

However the relevant clauses in the EU Treaties were inserted at the request of the Crown Dependencies authorities, they may be removed in a future treaties revision but that's the situation for now.

I think you mean, the Crown Dependencies authorities on behalf of the various financial corps etc (and not the Jersey residents) there