Irish Child, Canadian Mother

[IrishTom]

A friend of mine, whom is Canadian, is hoping to relocate to Ireland before the next school term starts so her son grows up near his father. Her child is five and she is waiting on his Irish passport. His father is from Derry, so he automatically qualifies.

Ive read the relevant text and I have a couple of questions, if I may.

5)The right of all Union citizens to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States should, if it is to be exercised under objective conditions of freedom and dignity, be also granted to their family members, irrespective of nationality. For the purposes of this Directive, the definition of ‘family member’ should also include the registered partner if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnership as equivalent to marriage.

She has only just applied for the childs Irish passport a couple of weeks ago in the Irish consulate in Toronto. What are the chances of the process being completed before September?

Secondly, if the application is not processed by September, can she live and work in the 6 counties, due to her having a child with an Irish citizen? Does the directive cover her as a "family member"? They are friends now, not partners. Can she reside in the 6 but work in the 26 as there are more suitable job opportunities for somebody with her qualifications there?

Furthermore, does she, the mother of an Irish citizen, have the right to legally work in the 26 counties?

The directives are harder to figure out than the Da Vinci code.

[Monifé]

5)The right of all Union citizens to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States should, if it is to be exercised under objective conditions of freedom and dignity, be also granted to their family members, irrespective of nationality. For the purposes of this Directive, the definition of ‘family member’ should also include the registered partner if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnership as equivalent to marriage.

To avail of this part of the directive, your friend will be applying as partner of the union citizen. They would need to prove a durable relationship of 2 years of more with plenty of documentary evidence of relationship.

Evidence of Identity:
For the applicant:

A Valid Passport
For the EU national:

A Valid Passport
OR
A Valid National ID Card

Evidence of Relationship with the EU National:
Where a person is applying on the basis of a family relationship with an EU national, the following evidence (with notarised translation where document is not in English or Irish) must be provided for the application to be considered:

For Marriage to the EU national:

A Civil Marriage Certificate.

For Dependant Parents, Grandparents and relatives in the ascending line of the EU National:

Birth Certificate(s)
OR
Other satisfactory evidence of relationship with the EU national
AND
Evidence of Dependency on the EU national

For Partnerships (including Same Sex):

A Civil Partnership Certificate
OR
Other satisfactory evidence of a durable relationship being in existence for at least two years.
For other Family Members:

Satisfactory evidence of relationship with the EU national
AND
Evidence of Dependency on the EU national
OR
Evidence of membership of the EU National’s household
OR
Medical evidence, including a medical report from a physician, hospital etc.., that you require the personal care of the EU National for Health reasons

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP08000033

Note if she applies for any of the above apart from spouse or partner, she will have to prove that she is dependent on the EU national and I am not sure if she would be issued with the necessary stamp to work. She might be issued with a stamp 3 which is dependent on the EU national.

She has only just applied for the childs Irish passport a couple of weeks ago in the Irish consulate in Toronto. What are the chances of the process being completed before September?

I am not aware of the processing times in the states, but from experience, I think passports are obtained quite quick from embassies. I got mine in 10 working days.

Secondly, if the application is not processed by September, can she live and work in the 6 counties, due to her having a child with an Irish citizen? Does the directive cover her as a "family member"? They are friends now, not partners. Can she reside in the 6 but work in the 26 as there are more suitable job opportunities for somebody with her qualifications there?

I am not too sure about this part, wait for others to reply. If she qualifies as a family member of the EU citizen (that is he holds an Irish Passport and is living in UK, ie: Northern Ireland) she can reside and work in the 6 counties but must register her presence after 3 months using form EU1.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/FormEU1. ... ormEU1.pdf

I don't think she can work in the 26 counties unless she is with the EU national and then they would have to apply as family member of British citizen living in Ireland.

Furthermore, does she, the mother of an Irish citizen, have the right to legally work in the 26 counties?

The directives are harder to figure out than the Da Vinci code.

I don't think so. But I am not sure, perhaps contact immigration with your questions or maybe ask Ben or one of the other Guru's.

Heres the contact details of immigration.

Immigration Contact Details
All correspondence sent by post should be sent to the following address;

Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service
13/14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2

Four Immigration Helplines are available:
Enquiries regarding :

Spouse/Partner or family member (non-EEA) of an EU National
Due to a large volume of EU Treaty Rights ( EUTR ) applications and in an effort to provide an efficient service to applicants, the EUTR Helpline is suspended for the foreseeable future. Most of the enquiries to the Helpline relate to when decisions will be made in individual applications. Applications are processed in chronological order of receipt and you can expect a decision six months after you have submitted your fully completed application along with the required documentation. Incomplete applications will not be registered on receipt. Incomplete applications are those not accompanied by the required documentation.

Should you have queries other than the above, please email them to eutreatyrights@justice.ie.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP08000090

[Ben]

Hi Tom.

Have a read of the ECJ ruling on Chen.

It would appear that the child is a British citizen as well as an Irish citizen.

In Northern Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her Irish national child, but will not be allowed to work until she has acquired Permanent Residence (5 years).

In Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her UK national child and, to my knowledge, will not be restricted from working.

[IrishTom]

Hi Tom.

Have a read of the ECJ ruling on Chen.

It would appear that the child is a British citizen as well as an Irish citizen.

In Northern Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her Irish national child, but will not be allowed to work until she has acquired Permanent Residence (5 years).

In Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her UK national child and, to my knowledge, will not be restricted from working.

Yes, it looks like it would be worthwhile to obtain British citizenship for the child too, albeit for the wrong reasons.

Hmmm, I will mention it to her.

[Ben]

Yes, it looks like it would be worthwhile to obtain British citizenship for the child too, albeit for the wrong reasons.

The child is already a British citizen. A passport is optional, but useful for circumstances such as these.

[9jeirean]

Far from it that Irish Tom be seen to be helping a non native to enter Ireland. I think someone has hacked Irish Tom's p/w .

BTW what was the Derry dude doing in Canada having a baby with a native Canadian. He should have been deported at once

..........and lest I forget, If Calsberg does Irony....... RFLMAO Funny world isn't it Tom?

[9jeirean]

Deleted - double post

[IrishTom]

BTW what's the Derry dude doing in Canada having a baby with a native Canadian. He should be deported at once

I dunno.

What is a Nigerian doing claiming asylum in Ireland after hopping through countless numbers of safe countries?

[9jeirean]

BTW what's the Derry dude doing in Canada having a baby with a native Canadian. He should be deported at once

I dunno.

What is a Nigerian doing claiming asylum in Ireland after hopping through countless numbers of safe countries?

Funny dude you. Wish your friends good luck. Glad to see you are learning some rudimentary lessons on people mobility, well hopefully; and hey dude, you couldn't have started with a better module than the EU directives. Good luck in your transformation If Calsberg does Irony indeed

Slan

9j

[Monifé]

I dunno.

What is a Nigerian doing claiming asylum in Ireland after hopping through countless numbers of safe countries?

I hope that is not directed at my situation Tom...

[smalltime]

Irishtom you are true Irish in you I believe now.

you have a good side

Irish are helpful indeed

[IrishTom]

I dunno.

What is a Nigerian doing claiming asylum in Ireland after hopping through countless numbers of safe countries?

I hope that is not directed at my situation Tom...

It wasnt.

[IrishTom]

It would appear that the child is a British citizen as well as an Irish citizen.

In Northern Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her Irish national child, but will not be allowed to work until she has acquired Permanent Residence (5 years).

In Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her UK national child and, to my knowledge, will not be restricted from working.

Thanks for the reading material. I tried to explain to her that it would make things easier if the child obtained a British passport. She was a bit dumbfounded by that. Trying to explain the ins and outs of the directives to a straight talking Canadian is quite the task.

[walrusgumble]

Hi Tom.

Have a read of the ECJ ruling on Chen.

It would appear that the child is a British citizen as well as an Irish citizen.

In Northern Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her Irish national child, but will not be allowed to work until she has acquired Permanent Residence (5 years).

In Ireland, the mother has the right to reside with her UK national child and, to my knowledge, will not be restricted from working.

chen is quiet limited!

make sure that she and the child have money and sickness/health insurance to avail of chen (assuming that they are not living with father)

avail of both irish and british citizenship.

now now ben you are hitting a nerve into the irish mind ben, what tom meant about his comments about getting british citizenship, well, yes you are right, but, ah you need to go to Derry to understand tom's attitude/comment there

Tom, who would have thought that someone from the bog side or south derry could get some use out of having a british passport. funny, for all the nhs in the world, they could still, in the mind of true republicianism still deny being british, as is their right.

[acme4242]

walrusgumble and IrishTom

so you start to see the injustice, please remember this has been created since 2002, mainly by John O'Donoghue and Herr McDowell.
This is a purely Irish made problem.
Other EU states (most of them in fact) do not treat their own with such contempt.

http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wordpress.com/

A British Passport will get you family rights in Ireland, An Irish passport will not.

[walrusgumble]

walrusgumble and IrishTom

so you start to see the injustice, please remember this has been created since 2002, mainly by John O'Donoghue and Herr McDowell.
This is a purely Irish made problem.
Other EU states (most of them in fact) do not treat their own with such contempt.

http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wordpress.com/

A British Passport will get you family rights in Ireland, An Irish passport will not.

would you ever cope yourself on!

with regard to my comment about a child of a man who is born in the north, it was a tongue in cheeck remark to someone like Tom who could see the delicious irony, considering our countries history. yes the eu law is there, i was not making any adverse remarks about the law, simply commenting the chances of a northern, after all these years possibly trying to be recongnised politically and socially as irish now actually see an advantage to british citizenship. what eu law gives to others, the irish are free to take it up in another country, so far deal

however, if you think that changes my attitude towards certain marriages after a very short term of relationship and when (and only when) a deportation order is issued, then forget it. though,as i said before, we shall see what happens in the future. i do feel sorry for the crap genuine couples (even if one is an asylum seeker)

now secondly, don't put me into the same circle that that gentleman. you have not heard me come out with the kind of things he does. were i make comments which many of ye seem to disagree with (often without much thought) at least i make a valid and arguable effort to back it up. I am a fair person, I don't have an issue with immigrants. for a majority of times, for purpose of debate, i express, what i believe is the position of the state, or attitudes of the public - it is for ye then

yes, immigration has caught ireland with its pants down as far as 1997. john the bull was hopeless. i despise mcdowell but he did a job in the interest of the state and did a decent job considering the crap that went on before

you talk about injustice, well, with he huge exception of the directive 2004/38 ec matter, mcdowell was reasonably fair to non irish /non eu nationals examples include the ibc 05 scheme in light of a supreme court case of 2003 which gave him the green light to remove people ( what i mean here, was in order to avail of ibc, very light and reasonable conditions were required to be successful, out of 18k who applied, only 1k failed - due to failure to show continous residency)

if you ireland is bad, in relation to non irish and non eu people, then you have seen nothing when you look at the uk or denmark

look at your comment about british passport, yes, you are right, for an irish person who has a spouse or her family who are non irish non eu, you have a worse rights to family reunification tan eu national or refugee. is that fair? the arrogance of that comment, you'd swear we only realised this since the high court case late last year (its a matter which i have being ranting and raving about this since the kumar threads)

[IrishTom]

The child will not be obtaining a British passport. Thats a non runner for reasons WG alluded to and I dont wish to discuss on here.

Another Derry man, Seamus Heaney, sums it up with these words. Very apt in this situation.

'Be advised, my passport's green/ No glass of ours was ever raised / To toast the Queen.'

[IrishTom]

now now ben you are hitting a nerve into the irish mind ben, what tom meant about his comments about getting british citizenship, well, yes you are right, but, ah you need to go to Derry to understand tom's attitude/comment there.

Id recommend Derry to anyone. Lovely city and a great people. Just avoid getting into rounds with the locals.

[walrusgumble]

now now ben you are hitting a nerve into the irish mind ben, what tom meant about his comments about getting british citizenship, well, yes you are right, but, ah you need to go to Derry to understand tom's attitude/comment there.

Id recommend Derry to anyone. Lovely city and a great people. Just avoid getting into rounds with the locals.

oh absolutely, I was a regular visitor to Derry for years. The wimmen know how to doll up, very very nice (until they open their mouths lol)

I was suggesting to the other person to head up there to understand the natural attitudes towards the british or if ya from the waterfront, the irish, i just was not bothered going into it. Not that both communities are always enemies. good example Derry City FC.its good to see the city moving

[IrishTom]

Herr McDowell.

What a silly slur on the mans name. As MoJ, Minister McDowell accepted and gave an amnesty to more asylum seekers than any other Minister for Justice. Very "Herr" like, eh? I disliked the PDs, and in particular, McDowell. But a nazi he was not.

[IrishTom]

oh absolutely, I was a regular visitor to Derry for years. The wimmen know how to doll up, very very nice (until they open their mouths lol)

I melt when I hear the accent.

I was suggesting to the other person to head up there to understand the natural attitudes towards the british or if ya from the waterfront, the irish, i just was not bothered going into it.

Oh definitely, Derry is an unemployment black spot. It can do with all the tourism it can get. Id recommend the Bogside Inn for a few scoops after you do the bit of ould sight-seeing(aimed at non-Irish nationals visiting the area, not you, WG).

A lot of foreign nationals are a bit nervous when visiting the six and that is understandable given the recent history. But as a Dubliner, I will tell you this, you will not receive Irish hospitality like you will in the six counties. The lads and lassies you meet in the local pub by night, will be offering to drive you to the local tourist hotspots by the day.

Not that both communities are always enemies. good example Derry City FC.its good to see the city moving

Its a pity their financial irregularities condemned them to a year in the first division. The club helped unite all communities resident in Derry.

Anyway, back on topic. What is the best way for a mother of an Irish child to gain permission to work in the Republic?

Would it be quicker for her to look into the work permit system? Her skills are in demand here in the 26, she works in Canada as a substance abuse counselor(pc title).

[IrishTom]

Ive spoken to the wee girl on the phone again.

She is baffled, as am I. The only way she can live and work in her sons native country is by obtaining a British passport?

Her son is as Irish as Bertie Ahern claiming he won his cash on the horses.

The wee lad has a first native mother(ergo he is a first native too) and an Irish father(albeit under British occupation).

So, it seems like the lad has to obtain a British passport for his ma to work in the 26, where her skills are needed, to receive leave to remain.

Well, she is adament that her son will grow up as an Irish citizen. British citizenship will not enter the equation. He is Irish, according to her. To call her son, a British citizen goes against the grain. Hes as Irish as moi. She plans to visit once he finishes his pre-school in Canada. So we can have a wee chat with the GNIB.

This is ripe for a court case.

[Ben]

The child will not be obtaining a British passport. Thats a non runner for reasons WG alluded to and I dont wish to discuss on here.

Well, she is adament that her son will grow up as an Irish citizen. British citizenship will not enter the equation. He is Irish, according to her. To call her son, a British citizen goes against the grain.

Sorry Tom, just so I can understand fully: Your Canadian friend is saying that if moving to Ireland with her son were to be conditional on her obtain a British passport for him, she would prefer to stay in Canada?

Has your friend considered obtaining the British passport, using it for her benefit in her application for a Residence Card, then burning it to cinders immediately after receipt?

A child who moves to Ireland at the age of five, who is an Irish citizen and who has an Irish father, would not really "grow up" (culturally) as anything other than an Irish citizen, would he? Would the fact that his father happened to be born in a Northern county make any difference?

Finally, perhaps your Canadian friend ought to remember that the status quo of Northern Ireland is what provides her with a mechanism to live, with her son, in Ireland. If her child were not also a British citizen, your friend would have no right to live here at all.

[walrusgumble]

The child will not be obtaining a British passport. Thats a non runner for reasons WG alluded to and I dont wish to discuss on here.

Well, she is adament that her son will grow up as an Irish citizen. British citizenship will not enter the equation. He is Irish, according to her. To call her son, a British citizen goes against the grain.

Sorry Tom, just so I can understand fully: Your Canadian friend is saying that if moving to Ireland with her son were to be conditional on her obtain a British passport for him, she would prefer to stay in Canada?

Has your friend considered obtaining the British passport, using it for her benefit in her application for a Residence Card, then burning it to cinders immediately after receipt?

A child who moves to Ireland at the age of five, who is an Irish citizen and who has an Irish father, would not really "grow up" (culturally) as anything other than an Irish citizen, would he? Would the fact that his father happened to be born in a Northern county make any difference?

Finally, perhaps your Canadian friend ought to remember that the status quo of Northern Ireland is what provides her with a mechanism to live, with her son, in Ireland. If her child were not also a British citizen, your friend would have no right to live here at all.

not everyone has that attitude towards citzenship of any country. some people might have that attitude towards Irish citizenship, so you now get an idea of why the minister is so precious regarding certain non eu nationals applying for naturalisation. awarding citizenship to a foreigner can be one of the highest honours a country can give a non national

the anti british attitude has severely died down in ireland, but in this context, to obtain british citizenship, the father, a derry man, would have to recognise that he is british. it is something he may not want or for his son.

burning passport is a criminal offence btw. further, if the dept got the impression that the application was not made in good faith or in a fraudulent manner, residency can be revoked. what about renewing?

i know what you are saying, don't bite off the hand that feeds you, fair enough

[walrusgumble]

Ive spoken to the wee girl on the phone again.

She is baffled, as am I. The only way she can live and work in her sons native country is by obtaining a British passport?

Her son is as Irish as Bertie Ahern claiming he won his cash on the horses.

The wee lad has a first native mother(ergo he is a first native too) and an Irish father(albeit under British occupation).

So, it seems like the lad has to obtain a British passport for his ma to work in the 26, where her skills are needed, to receive leave to remain.

Well, she is adament that her son will grow up as an Irish citizen. British citizenship will not enter the equation. He is Irish, according to her. To call her son, a British citizen goes against the grain. Hes as Irish as moi. She plans to visit once he finishes his pre-school in Canada. So we can have a wee chat with the GNIB.

This is ripe for a court case.

is there any chance that there is a relationship between the mother and father? would he not come south? she must be very confident that she would get work or that the child would get a place in school. could she afford health insurance and all?

as for court case, well the law is reasonably established regarding the rights to residency of the parent of an irish child, and its not too great. (though, in those instances, both parents were non irish non eu and former asylum seekers, so there may be a bit of a distinction)

my suggestion would be is to make a general application for residency to general immigration at inis burg quay. the application should clarify the child's position, the child's entitlement to canadian, irish and british citizenship, relationship with father if any, (your friend and child) proof of her qualifications, evidence of being offered employment here, request not to be made get a work permit. What legal rights does father have regarding access, custody and guardianship of the child???? proof of financial self sufficiency and health insurance.

would she not be interested in moving to say belfast where she then can use her child's irish citizenship in err, ahem british "political" land - as stated chen is very narrow but can be achieved