Passport application

aix · Post by **aix** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:00 pm

Consider the following scenario. A person is applying for their first British passport, on the basis of naturalisation (1yr with ILR after 4 years of HSMP). The person has no British ancestry whatsoever.

Literal reading of the passport application form suggests that they need to provider grandparents' details (dates/places of birth and date of marriage).

However, these details are clearly irrelevant to the application in question.

Are they really required, or am I misreading the paperwork?

Post by **JAJ** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:24 pm

It should be irrelevant information if you are naturalised. It's for those people who have a citizenship claim through descent (grandparent doesn't normally make you a British citizen automatically, but can do in some cases).

Are you sure there are no instructions on the form telling you to skip this section?

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:09 pm

You're misreading the paperwork.

The form clearly says that you need to provide details for parents etc. UNLESS you have been issued a naturalisation or registration certificate.

I filled out the form a few months ago and remember that I had to simply specify my own details and the naturalisation certificate number.

aix · Post by **aix** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:35 pm

Many thanks for the replies so far.

I've just had another look at the paperwork, and can't for the life of me find anything that would state that those details are not required for applications based on naturalisation.

Guidance notes, page 4 says: "First passport: [...] You should fill in sections 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9, [...]". Section 4 guidance says "We need to know parents' details for: first-time passport applications [...]. If both parents [...] were born abroad, also write the full name, town, country, date of birth and date of marriage of grandparents (or details of parents' claim to British nationality [...]."

Would someone be kind enough to point me to the exact place on the form or guidance note where is says that parents' and/or grandparents' details are not required for naturalisation applications.

Thanks.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:12 pm

aix - it is quite clearly specified on the actual form itself.

it says something like "please enter your parents name etc. unless you are a british citizen by naturalisation or registration". I'm sure anyone here who has a form lying around can easily check. it's on the middle section of the second page.

I don't have a copy at the moment but the instructions are very clear on the form though the guidance notes may be less clear. Anyway I naturalised and have my passport and never had to fill in my parent's details so you can be sure this is pretty reliable.

basis · Post by **basis** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:38 pm

I have to agree with aix on this. The form is quite unclear on this and in fact I entered those details (now i dont remember whether I entered grandparents details or just left it with parents details).

logically naturalised people should not need to fill in that. The form says that it is needed to find whether the person's claims to citizenship is thru descent or not. May be implied meaning is that naturalised / registered persons need not enter the details. Atleast on first reading one cannot make out that naturalised or even in case of minors born to parents settled in the UK etc need not have grand parent details.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:44 pm

Basis,
I don't think the form is confusing - the guidance notes might well be.
It says clearly on the form ( just before the relevant section) that you don't have to fill these details in if you have naturalised and it didn't even occur to me to do so. Both my wife ( separate occasions ) filled in the forms and left that section blank and it went through without comment.
The actual form for UK applicants is not online so I can't reference it but forms for overseas applicants are on the fco website.
if you look at the notes here under Note 3 ( just above Note 4) it makes it quite clear that you don't have to fill these details in if you're a naturalised citizen.
If someone has an actual passport application form they should be able to put the actual text preceding the section here - it makes it quite clear in my opinion.

aix · Post by **aix** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:05 pm

I think I see where the confusion is coming from. We may be talking about different forms.

It would appear that Form C1 you are referring to is used for passport applications made overseas. The form and guidance notes are available from the FCO Web site (http://tinyurl.com/24qpz) and are quite different from the passport application pack I picked up at the post office this morning.

The latter seems a lot less clear on the issue.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:19 pm

aix wrote:I think I see where the confusion is coming from. We may be talking about different forms.

It would appear that Form C1 you are referring to is used for passport applications made overseas. The form and guidance notes are available from the FCO Web site (http://tinyurl.com/24qpz) and are quite different from the passport application pack I picked up at the post office this morning.

The latter seems a lot less clear on the issue.

Aix,
The reason I gave the link was because the UK application form is not available online so I couldn't reference it. That was the closest proxy for the real thing online.
As I said I used the normal passport application pack and did not find it confusing. it was clear in saying you do not need to specify parents' details etc. if you are a citizen by naturalisation or registration. If you have an actual UK form read the instructions on the middle section on the second page of the form.

Actually I found a spare form so here is the exact wording from the a passport form for a UK applicant ( this is what you pick up from any post office) :

Section 4 b
Was the person named in section 2 born outside the UK ?

YES
Not everyone born overseas to a british parent is british. Fill in their parents' details below UNLESS the home office has granted the person named in section 2 a certificate of registration and naturalisation

I don't see any scope for confusion there.

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:34 pm

The UKPS website application (which you complete online, and is then printed out and sent to you to sign and send in) certainly has a "rule" so that if you are a naturalised or registered person, you give details of the certificate, and then "skip over" the questions about your ancestry. Can't speak for the pre-printed form, though...

The FCO form is interesting, though - although the notes make the point clear, it should still have been possible to design the form itself to steer you away from the "ancestry" questions, if you were naturalised / registered in UK. Another whinge about the FCO form is that if you print it out on a black & white printer - like a laser printer that you'd find in a typical office - the yellow "steering lines" and question numbers can be all but invisible in the printed copy. Not very helpful if you're filling it in away from your computer, and so are unable to check the onscreen version!

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:37 pm

ppron747 wrote:The UKPS website application (which you complete online, and is then printed out and sent to you to sign and send in) certainly has a "rule" so that if you are a naturalised or registered person, you give details of the certificate, and then "skip over" the questions about your ancestry. Can't speak for the pre-printed form, though...

It's the same in the normal form ppron. See my post above.

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:51 pm

Agreed! - you'll note that there is only three mins difference between our two posts - I hadn't seen yours before posting mine... I wasn't casting any doubt...

bbdivo · Post by **bbdivo** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:57 pm

In case you're interested here is the passport form in pdf format:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/App%20C1.pdf

aix · Post by **aix** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:12 pm

lemess,

I have to agree that the presented wording leaves no scope for confusion. However, the form I have in front of me has a different wording for item 4B.

May I ask which version of the form you have? Does the front page have a code printed in the top right corner that looks like SE/xx/nn?

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:39 pm

aix,
yes it says SE/04/01.

Out of interest what does your form say ?

aix · Post by **aix** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:33 pm

Mine is also SE/04/01. The only plausible explanation is that there exist multiple revisions of the form, with different wording. See the scanned image below or at http://static.flickr.com/38/104342973_de62a9a3b1_o.jpg

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:22 am

Very strange. The form I have has the text I mentioned but yours is clearly missing it. I can now see how this is unnecessarily confusing.

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:38 am

Aix - Exactly this is the version I always got from the Post office. And yes it is confusing.

aix · Post by **aix** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:00 am

Even though the form I have fails to make it clear, all evidence presented so far suggests that the entire section 4B is optional for naturalisation applications.

I'll probably give UKPS a call on Monday to confirm this is still the case and the rules haven't changed recently.

Thanks everyone.

shankarindian · Post by **shankarindian** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:15 am

Aix - Could you please post the reply you get from the Passport office on the matter of parents's names? I think this may be of interest to many people. By the way, do we need to attach any document to support details of parents's?

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:18 am

Shankarindian - It is not required. I had asked this to the passport office. Personally I had filled in this part but did not take any other supportings. Supportings would be necessary if you claim that you are british citizen because either of your parents / grandparents were born in the UK or British Citizen etc.

For naturalised people it is optional. however, that version of floating in many post offices does not make it clear.

mhunjn · Post by **mhunjn** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:15 pm

For those who have applied, how particular are the UKPS people about the dimensions for the photo for the application?... asin, dimensions?... do they allow for a few 'mm' variation?...

basis · Post by **basis** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:20 pm

mhunjn wrote:For those who have applied, how particular are the UKPS people about the dimensions for the photo for the application?... asin, dimensions?... do they allow for a few 'mm' variation?...

It is very easy anywhere to get passport photos - either diy machines or photo shops. You can also take a digital photo in your own camera and boots or others will print a passport size photo for you. Why would u like to test the tolerance of UKPS there ?

Khurram · Post by **Khurram** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:07 pm

For those who have applied, how particular are the UKPS people about the dimensions for the photo for the application?... asin, dimensions?... do they allow for a few 'mm' variation?...

Have a look at this earlier thread.

mhunjn · Post by **mhunjn** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:07 pm

Thanks Khuram.

Basis, I know there are quite a few photo boxes around... (it's difficult to get exactly the kind of dimensions UKPS want)....as the UKPS site seems to say that in addition to the 35x45 size, there have to be certain dimensions for the forehead to chin (for example, 29mm) dimensions. This in turn would come from how close you are to the lens, magnification etc. What I meant to ask was, how strict are they with regards to that?...

The reason I asked that was because the US embassy has similar guidelines, and they are pretty strict about those.

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