Return of Passport for Travel -- Urgent Help Required

[dipsy]

Hi Guys,

My HSMP application was sent in March 2004 and the decision is still awaited. My problem is that my husband and I need to travel outside the UK and have requested our passports back. Now when I spoke to a rep at WPUK I was told that I need to send a written request for passport to a person named XXXXXX which I did. I was also told that upon my return i need to send back the passports to WPUK to continue processing my application.

Today when i called up to enquire if my passports had been sent back to me, I was told by a rep that a return of passport means withdrawal of application!! She also said that if i did that, i would need to make a fresh application upon my arrival and also pay the fees all over again. This can't be true!! It sounds bizzare! Cos i was never told about this in my previous conversations with the WPUK passport return team.

Could someone pls shed some light on this cos the Home office seems absolutely impenetrable for any queries. It takes about 100 attempts to get them on the phone and when u do get them, there is never a concrete answer!

Help appreciated.

Dipsy

[kawasaki1]

We advise that the individual does not make any non-urgent travel plans until we have returned their passport and any dependants passports or travel documents. If they do wish to travel whilst their application is with Work Permits (UK), then their application will be withdrawn and their documents and passport will be returned. In these circumstances, they will not receive a refund. If they still wish to pursue their application, a new application will have to be made at a later date, including a new fee.

Thats from their website.

[dipsy]

It is no longer necessary to submit passports with an HSMP application. Passports should be submitted with form FLR(IED) after you have been notified of your HSMP decision in writing. If you have previously submitted your passport and require its return for travel purposes, fax requests should be made to the appropriate In-Country Team.

Thats also from the website http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... hsmp.html?

[Kayalami]

HSMP/WP applications submitted before 1 April 2004.

1. Application is both for acceptance on (a) the HSMP/WP schemes and for (b) Further Leave To Remain in the UK under HSMP/WP status. This is why a passport was required in these applications.

2. If you withdraw the application then you withdraw both (a) and (b) unless you specifically state that you are only withdrwaing (a). Even then the HSMP/WP Team do not have to accept your request i.e. it is purely discretionary in this case and IMHO they will not do so given the government's clearly stated commitment of raising revenue from the FLR stream.

HSMP/ WP applications submitted on or after 1 April 2004.

1. Application is only for acceptance on the HSMP/WP programme. This is why a passport is no longer submitted.

2. Once HSMP/WP is approved you must apply for distinct HSMP/WP FLR on Form FLR IED.

The original poster (dipsy) is clearly in category 1 and has thus withdrawn their application for both acceptance on the HSMP scheme and for FLR in HSMP status by requesting for their passports back. Note that if your current visa has expired you must leave the UK within 28 days of receiving your passport back unless you change status to another category. You will have to re-apply for the HSMP scheme upon returning to the UK but only if you are not a visitor.

Regretably a costly mistake made without seeking competent advice which will set you back given the ever increasing HSMP processing times. I am sorry this is not the news you had hoped for.

[dipsy]

Hi Kayalami,

Thanks for your reply. I would like to provide some more info so that you can surely conclude that our application has been withdrawn. Firstly, I never asked nor mentioned about 'Withdrawing' my application.

When i learnt about my travel plans, I simply called the WPUK team and asked them what the procedure was incase I have to travel. I was told that the passports could be returned to us and upon our arrival they would have to be sent back to WPUK. I was NEVER told that asking for the passport back would amount to withdrawal of application by the member of staff who i was speaking with. Infact I was asked to send a request by post to a specific named person in the HSMP passports team (the letter which I shall paste here for you to see).

I have spoken to HSMP members of staff at the following numbers : 01142743305 and 01142743304 and on both occassions I have NOT been told that a request for passport would mean withdrawal of application. Infact they told me that if i asked for the passports, I would be required to send it back to them as soon as i arrived back in UK. Such was the conversation i had!! And now today when i called to enquire if my passport had been despatched, another member of staff informed me that the application would be considered withdrawn (refer my first post).

I feel this is absolutely unfair given the fact that members of staff did not inform us of the consequences of requesting our passports back. Btw our visas on work permit are valid till 2008.

Heres the letter i wrote to them:

Thursday, 27 May 2004

To,

Mr. xxxxxx
Work Permits UK
4th Floor
Milton House
Charter Row
Sheffield
S1 4NX


Subject: Request for return of Passports for the purpose of travel.

Dear Mr. xxxxxx,

Following my conversation with a representative of the ‘Leave to Remain’ team, I have been advised to write to you for the return of our passports. I filed my HSMP application sometime around 15th March 2004 from within the UK. The reference number is xxxxxx. As part of the application process I sent my passport and my husband’s passport along with all the relevant documents.

My husband and myself are now required to travel to India in June 2004 and would therefore like to have our passports returned to us. The tentative dates are 21st June for departure from London and 30th June for return. I understand that I am required to send the passports back to the HSMP team for processing my application, which I shall do so immediately upon my return to UK.

I am enclosing a paid special delivery envelope to return our passports in. The address to which it should be posted to is as follows:

xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx

The above address is our new residence for which I have already sent a letter to the HSMP team informing them of the change in our address. This was sent through recorded delivery nearly 2 weeks ago. Therefore your system should reflect the above address as our current address. In case it still holds our previous address then you may please change it to the above. Should you have any queries, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me on the following contact details:

abcdefghij@hotmail.com

Mobile No: xxxxxxxxxx

Yours truly,

xxxxxxxxxx

[Kayalami]

Sorry if I sound blunt but I regret to inform you that ignorance of the law as you potray is no defence.

Under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 as amended by the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 an application for a variation of leave to remain in the UK (as your HSMP application submitted prior to 1 April 2004 was) is classed as withdrawn/abondoned if the applicant asks for their passport back for travel reasons before the application is decided. This is why the HO ask for such requests to be in writing ensuring there is no ambiguity should there be any issues arising in future as they have in your case.

Your comments that you discussed the return of passports back with a caseworker who never mentioned the immigration consequence of such a request is irrelevant and would have no basis in law before the Immigration Appellate authorities should you decide to follow this issue up further. In any case the fact that you have leave to remain as a work permit holder to 2008 would see that not even an appeal on compassionate/ discretionary grounds would be considered. Your only hope is if the letter you wrote has been lost/ is never received by the caseworker but this seems to be a long shot given your comments about special delivery posting. My usual advice in this type of situations is that you immediatley fax a letter to the person you wrote the passport request to stating that you were not aware your request constitutes a withdrawal of the application and that this be disregarded (follow the fax up with a letter by special delivery) - they may or may not ignore this. I am sorry to say this but IMHO they will ignore your fax/ 2nd letter - the Home Office is under intense scrutiny for 'dodgy' practices and acceding to your follow up fax constitutes a fairly severe offence - I suspect the caseworker would have to refer it to a more senior person in any case.

You are very lucky that you have LTR in a category leading to settlement so to an extent can absorb the bad news you have recieved. In future do not rely on discussions with Home Office personel - their job is not to protect your interests but to execute government policy in accordance with the prevailing laws.

Hope things work out for you in the future.

[dipsy]

If every bit of information regarding HSMP is to be extracted from the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, then there would have been no use for making sites dedicated to the various schemes promoted by the Home Office. Such as the HSMP scheme on workinginuk.gov.uk. There is also something called 'Guidance Notes'. I'm sure such a point could have easily found a place in the guidance note, BUT i'm not surprised(now) its not there???

I do not mind your bluntness, but what I disagree with is the fact that prospective applicants are not legal people who have a wide knowledge of different sections and acts that concern their application. On one hand the IND site promotes the 'Crystal Mark' a hallmark of clarity by using simple english and on the other hand it chooses to omit such vital information that affects the applicants case adversely!

Add to that, the lack of providing this critical bit of information during a telephone enquiry. FYI the member of staff spent 15 mins on the phone explaining how i should send a self addressed postage paid special delivery envelope to the person for request of passports! Surely anyone spending so much time to go into details could have surely explained the fact that the application would be classed as 'witdrawn'!! Shouldn;t have taken them more than 1 minutes to explain that. Infact the site still says that the passport can be requested if you are required to travel. An addition to that saying that the application will be withddrawn could easily have been put up on the site!

I can go on and on about this, but it seems futile for now. Finally I would like to add that I may have made a mistake, but there is definately a flaw in the system. I admit i am deeply distressed about this but I Shall try and see what can be best done in my circumstances. Thanks for your comments again.

[Cosmopol]

I can go on and on about this, but it seems futile for now.

That's a good point... there is no perfect system, and it doesn't revolve around us... so far the burden of inquiries and awareness is with the beneficiary, i.e. the applicant - the immigration phone conversation are notorious for being incomplete or ambiguous; it's often recommeneded to call twice or more to get different opinions, and even then not to rely on them

Hope you move on to practical steps regarding this - that's where Kayalami's response was: not suggesting that you must know the law, but explaining what factors will come into play if and when you decide to fight this with the system.

[dipsy]

Kayalami,

Following your comments on my posts regarding Passport Return, I would like to inform you that your comments caused us immense anxiety. You have been a poster to this site for a long time and have made a good contribution to various posts submitted by people however on this occassion your comments/advice were very misleading and poorly researched.

I have received the passports alongwith a letter from the Home Office stating that the passports are being returned while the application continues to be in process. We are to retain the passports with us until the Home Office requests for them again.

This is the reply I was expecting from the Home Office when I first spoke to them. And fortunately this is the way it worked out for us.

In contrast to this, your comments/advice about our poorly thought out decision to request return of our passports was made with such conviction that the impression created was one that spelt the doom of our application process. I would like to request you to please verify your information sources before making hasty comments about people's situation. People's situations are always going to be different and it is not always possible to predict the outcome. In such cases, it would be best to either not offer any suggestion or not sound so confident about the outcome.

Cheers

Dipsy

[Chess]

Following your comments on my posts regarding Passport Return, I would like to inform you that your comments caused us immense anxiety. You have been a poster to this site for a long time and have made a good contribution to various posts submitted by people however on this occassion your comments/advice were very misleading and poorly researched.

Dipsy,

Kayalami's advice was not poorly researched - It is common knowledge that once a passport is requested for prior to the determination of an application - then it is assumed withdrawn. Your case might have been an exception.

Last but not least, information on this forum is given based on individuals experience/knowledge of the immigration law. None of us here is an OISC registered lawyer - we offer free advise based on our understanding of the situation...and yes, we do occasionaly get it wrong

Good luck with your application and I sincerly hope that you get a positive outcome and that your continued stay in the UK will be properous and fruitful....

I am sure you have already benefited from the forum - and you will be back to offer your own advise or to raise further queries...

Best of luck for the future

PS. Did you sort out your International Driving Permit issue??? (i.e after 12 months stay in the UK) - just like the withdraw of passport being equal to withdrawal of application, the issue of IDP is not that clear......However, you could be driving Illegaly which is an imprisonable offense (done my research though

[unixguru]

All statements made by Kayalami were factual and coincide exactly with what is sited on the HO website. I just went step by step through the HO website and found that Kayalami misrepresented nothing and offered no misleading information. In a similar case to yours, on another forum, passports were requested back, they were then returned by the HO. HO never requested the return of the passports and application was deemed to be abandoned. As stated on this website always contact the HO more than once. Odds of getting the same answer twice are very low. I also contend that if your application is reviewed by a knowledgeable officer that you may still have it withdrawn.

[Kayalami]

If every bit of information regarding HSMP is to be extracted from the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, then there would have been no use for making sites dedicated to the various schemes promoted by the Home Office. Such as the HSMP scheme on workinginuk.gov.uk. There is also something called 'Guidance Notes'. I'm sure such a point could have easily found a place in the guidance note, BUT i'm not surprised(now) its not there???

Of course I note how you have decided to pick information that 'suits' you in respect of passport requests. Home Office application forms, guidance notes and internet sites clearly state that their details are 'not a complete statment of law' - every single aspect of the Immigration Acts cannot be included everywhere.

I do not mind your bluntness, but what I disagree with is the fact that prospective applicants are not legal people who have a wide knowledge of different sections and acts that concern their application. On one hand the IND site promotes the 'Crystal Mark' a hallmark of clarity by using simple english and on the other hand it chooses to omit such vital information that affects the applicants case adversely!

You can disagree all you like but it is your responsibility to determine where and how you fit into the rules as well as know the consequences of any action you take in relation to the application be it a submission of further documentation, withdrawing etc - I presume that is why you visited this board in the 1st place..to know what steps to take. If there are doubts on your part then seek competent legal advice. To quote you "the Crystal mark refers to explaining legal terms in simple English" - it does not refer to providing all the information you need to make an application.

Add to that, the lack of providing this critical bit of information during a telephone enquiry. FYI the member of staff spent 15 mins on the phone explaining how i should send a self addressed postage paid special delivery envelope to the person for request of passports! Surely anyone spending so much time to go into details could have surely explained the fact that the application would be classed as 'witdrawn'!! Shouldn;t have taken them more than 1 minutes to explain that. Infact the site still says that the passport can be requested if you are required to travel. An addition to that saying that the application will be withddrawn could easily have been put up on the site!

I was not privy to the conversation you had so don't know what or what was not discussed - as per my earlier comment the 'person' on the other end of the line is not there to protect your interests by discussing all the relevant aspects of your application. If you did not deem it important to ask about the effect of a withdrawal why should they bother bringing it up - its your application not theirs.

In contrast to this, your comments/advice about our poorly thought out decision to request return of our passports was made with such conviction that the impression created was one that spelt the doom of our application process. I would like to request you to please verify your information sources before making hasty comments about people's situation. People's situations are always going to be different and it is not always possible to predict the outcome. In such cases, it would be best to either not offer any suggestion or not sound so confident about the outcome

Horsefeathers - with all due respect I told you the truth and you did not like it. I don't profess to know every detail of the UK immigration system but I have been involved with for over 10 years and I know when a fact is a fact. You have been very lucky to get your ppts back and for the application to continue to be processed if that is indeed what has happened. No one knows why the caseworker has exercised discretion but IMHO its based on the lengthy processing delays being experienced (so the cw does not want you further penalised at re-submission) and possibly that your application was submitted near to the implementation of a change in policy regarding joint HSMP scheme/HSMP FLR applications. You may not have been so lucky on another day/ with a different caseworker . Do have a safe trip to India and best wishes with the HSMP application in all aspects including FLR.

rgds

Kayalami

[dipsy]

Kayalami,

Apologies if my comments offended you. I guess the whole thing can be summed up as below.

You told me the truth, which I ofcourse didn't like as you have rightly assumed. Your suggestions may have been as per the law and based on similar situations in the past, and that is why you probably gave the reasons that you did. You were right in doing so.

However the outcome proved quite different and in my favour. Maybe what could have been added in your previous comments was a line or two about 'discretion' by the IMHO. I would have felt all is not lost. Unless the odds of such a thing (return of passports while continuing to process application) happening was next to nil. In which case this is a first of its kind! Atleast openly discussed!

You have been very lucky to get your ppts back and for the application to continue to be processed if that is indeed what has happened. No one knows why the caseworker has exercised discretion but IMHO its based on the lengthy processing delays being experienced (so the cw does not want you further penalised at re-submission) and possibly that your application was submitted near to the implementation of a change in policy regarding joint HSMP scheme/HSMP FLR applications. You may not have been so lucky on another day/ with a different caseworker .

The reason couldn't be more clear. Yes this is the way it happened. And your assumptions as above are quite valid. Probably this is a rare case and the nature of events surrounding the case are unique, therefore the realistic comments from your side. Point taken!

Finally, thanks to all you guys for your feedback and your time. I have always benefited from this forum and I hope to use it in future too. I hope the application process sails through without any glitches. Kaya, Apologies once again.

Cheers

Dipsy

Oh by the way Chess, I solved the problem of IDP by getting myself a Full UK Driving License. The Practical was a tough one, but I managed to pass!! Thanks.

[Chess]

Oh by the way Chess, I solved the problem of IDP by getting myself a Full UK Driving License. The Practical was a tough one, but I managed to pass!! Thanks.

Very good move....

....now you need to drive safely for the next 5 years or so... to acquire the '5 years no claims bonus' and your car insurance will get to the £250 range....

Good Luck

[Chess]

Following your comments on my posts regarding Passport Return, I would like to inform you that your comments caused us immense anxiety. You have been a poster to this site for a long time and have made a good contribution to various posts submitted by people however on this occassion your comments/advice were very misleading and poorly researched.

I have received the passports alongwith a letter from the Home Office stating that the passports are being returned while the application continues to be in process. We are to retain the passports with us until the Home Office requests for them again

.

Dipsy,

Kayalami and other forum members were right - it appears your application may have been WITHDRAWN...............please phone HO to find out the status...

Witdrawal of passport is tantamout to withdrawal of application.....se latests news on the UK HO website below:


http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... ports.html