Irish law so unfair

[irishgirl]

Just a quick story I want to share with you My husband arrived in Ireland 8 years ago. I met my husband - who is a non eu national 5 years ago. We were together for 1 year when his application for residency was refused and a deportation order was issued. As he did not wish to return to his home country as it was unsafe at the home he did not report to the GNIB. We got married 2 years ago and made an application to remove the deportation order and apply for residency based on a number of factors - being our marriage, and on humaniatrian grounds - there was a war in his counrty over a year ago. It took the repatriation section a year and a half to make a decision on his application and they refused it saying our marriage was a marriage of convenience. This was based on personal statements from us and our frends and photographs. Not once did they meet us and speak to us about our relationship. We attended the GNIB on numerous occasions to report and again nobody spoke to us. Thankfully, with the help of an excellent solicitor, we reapplied under different grounds and my husband was granted a stamo 3 visa. I think it is disgraceful how we were treated - 1. we were never spoken to. 2. I saw a 'married' couple meeting outside the GNIB on one occasion, checking out their 'life stories' and entering the GNIB. I think spouses of Irish citizens are treated very unfairly and only for our solicitor I would have been forced to give up my good job and move to another EU country. Has anyone else ever been in the same situation?

[IrishTom]

What was his status in Ireland and what was his nationality?

[IntheQ]

Let me guess He is from Pakistan

May be your case was genuine BUT its not the Law that's wrong instead its the people who misuse it. Or should I say track record of people from certain countries put there their fellow countrymen under the scanner.

Facts from DoJ can't be wrong, can they ?
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=56635

[archigabe]

Let me guess He is from Pakistan

May be your case was genuine BUT its not the Law that's wrong instead its the people who misuse it. Or should I say track record of people from certain countries put there their fellow countrymen under the scanner.

Facts from DoJ can't be wrong, can they ?
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=56635

Sorry, those statistics are not for you to misuse or make allegations based on your prejudices. Please refrain from making any allegations unless you have a clear idea.
thanks.

[IntheQ]

Sorry, those statistics are not for you to misuse or make allegations based on your prejudices. Please refrain from making any allegations unless you have a clear idea.
thanks.

Point taken.

[kabuki]

Let me guess He is from Pakistan

May be your case was genuine BUT its not the Law that's wrong instead its the people who misuse it. Or should I say track record of people from certain countries put there their fellow countrymen under the scanner.

Facts from DoJ can't be wrong, can they ?
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=56635

No matter what the statistics say, the GNIB should be doing their job and interviewing all couples who they suspect of sham marriages. They should be open-minded and not prejudice. They have to remain objective at all times, and they don't.

[9jeirean]

Let me guess He is from Pakistan

May be your case was genuine BUT its not the Law that's wrong instead its the people who misuse it. Or should I say track record of people from certain countries put there their fellow countrymen under the scanner.

Facts from DoJ can't be wrong, can they ?
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=56635

No matter what the statistics say, the GNIB should be doing their job and interviewing all couples who they suspect of sham marriages. They should be open-minded and not prejudice. They have to remain objective at all times, and they don't.

Good ol' funny Irish system, init.? Doing something illegal in the hope of stemming what they perceived was illegal. "It's too much hazels to put in place an efficient system, we'll just ban all them foreigners". Why won't they? Thousands of Irish citizen are denied their EU rights on a daily basis and the government have largely gone away with it. Now they want to spread it over to other EU citizens.

Time to stick it up to the eejits.

[mktsoi]

Let me guess He is from Pakistan

May be your case was genuine BUT its not the Law that's wrong instead its the people who misuse it. Or should I say track record of people from certain countries put there their fellow countrymen under the scanner.

Facts from DoJ can't be wrong, can they ?
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=56635

No matter what the statistics say, the GNIB should be doing their job and interviewing all couples who they suspect of sham marriages. They should be open-minded and not prejudice. They have to remain objective at all times, and they don't.

i think it is a typical irish way to do things. they know what the problem is, but they would tends to let it drag on for long time and hope the problem will go away by itself. i know it is really bad about that and i am not saying it is fair for people that really trying to go thr normal channel in the system itself. for the past 10 years, i would say the irish government putting in more restrictions than trying to put in a better immigration systems. Michael MacDowell certain put in most of it. Now Mr Ahern is in charge and he has no intentions to change any of it unless he really has to. Irishgal, if i were you, try not to beat the system because it is very hard, but i wish you luck tho

[walrusgumble]

Let me guess He is from Pakistan

May be your case was genuine BUT its not the Law that's wrong instead its the people who misuse it. Or should I say track record of people from certain countries put there their fellow countrymen under the scanner.

Facts from DoJ can't be wrong, can they ?
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=56635

No matter what the statistics say, the GNIB should be doing their job and interviewing all couples who they suspect of sham marriages. They should be open-minded and not prejudice. They have to remain objective at all times, and they don't.

Good ol' funny Irish system, init.? Doing something illegal in the hope of stemming what they perceived was illegal. "It's too much hazels to put in place an efficient system, we'll just ban all them foreigners". Why won't they? Thousands of Irish citizen are denied their EU rights on a daily basis and the government have largely gone away with it. Now they want to spread it over to other EU citizens.

Time to stick it up to the eejits.

"THousands of Irish citizens are denied their EU rights on a daily basis" What? Which "EU rights" are you referring to?

[acme4242]

"THousands of Irish citizens are denied their EU rights on a daily basis" What? Which "EU rights" are you referring to?

Now, now, don't tell me this is new to you.

The Irish Administration decided to discriminate against Irish Citizens and not grant equal EU rights to Irish Citizens and their family.

what rights are we talking about , how about these for starters...
rights to travel, rights to family reunification, and the right not to be discriminated against.

more reading on this topic
http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wordpress.com/

[Ben]

The Irish Administration decided to discriminate against Irish Citizens and not grant equal EU rights to Irish Citizens and their family.

EC law does not require them to.

[acme4242]

The Irish Administration decided to discriminate against Irish Citizens and not grant equal EU rights to Irish Citizens and their family.

EC law does not require them to.

The Irish Administration decided as it is a domestic internal matter to grant equal EU rights.......(Fater Ted music playing in the background..)
The EU jurisdiction stops at domestic internal matters.

Some Union states grant equal rights to their own, and automatically apply 2004/38/EC benefits to their own citizens without any conditions. Thereby avoiding possible discrimination. Their own citizens are always guaranteed at least equal treatment to other EU citizens.

For Example Italy.
Italy transposed EU directive 2004/38/EC into National Law Article 23 of 30/2007 which says “The provisions of this Legislative Decree, if more favourable, apply to the families of Italian citizensâ€

[9jeirean]

The Irish Administration decided to discriminate against Irish Citizens and not grant equal EU rights to Irish Citizens and their family.

EC law does not require them to.

Neither does the EU require them not to. The question is why would an Irish citizen have more legal right in another EU country but not on their own soil and more importantly why has the Irish government not grown the 'balls' to make this explicit in law? It akin to plucking off your eyeball so as not to have a stain in it. Twisted logic mate.

[kabuki]

This is a case of Irish Policy. The Irish are never really quick to fix it, just plug it up and worse ways until it bursts again. However, EU law is definitely easier than national law in many of the EU countries. This is why many are happy to take advantage of the Surinder Singh rule.

There are things in the current Irish system that are most definitely unfair, but there will be a difference between national law and EU law for some time to come. As for some regulations other countries have in place in National Law that differs from EU law, I find those differences to be good ones, but EU law could also make some adjustments in order to prevent misuse of the laws that exist.

[9jeirean]

This is a case of Irish Policy. The Irish are never really quick to fix it, just plug it up and worse ways until it bursts again. However, EU law is definitely easier than national law in many of the EU countries. This is why many are happy to take advantage of the Surinder Singh rule.

There are things in the current Irish system that are most definitely unfair, but there will be a difference between national law and EU law for some time to come. As for some regulations other countries have in place in National Law that differs from EU law, I find those differences to be good ones, but EU law could also make some adjustments in order to prevent misuse of the laws that exist.

Does Surinder Singh apply in Ireland?

[Ben]

Does Surinder Singh apply in Ireland?

Yes.

[walrusgumble]

"THousands of Irish citizens are denied their EU rights on a daily basis" What? Which "EU rights" are you referring to?

Now, now, don't tell me this is new to you.

The Irish Administration decided to discriminate against Irish Citizens and not grant equal EU rights to Irish Citizens and their family.

what rights are we talking about , how about these for starters...
rights to travel, rights to family reunification, and the right not to be discriminated against.

more reading on this topic
http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wordpress.com/

sweet mother of jesus! the concept of freedom of movement refers to when a person from one eu state exercises (either by working, providing a service, residing with funds etc, studing) their rights as contained in the treaty (in relation to freemovement) and the EU legislation (legislation pre the 2004 directive and the 2004 directive itself) in another EU state. In examples you have given, the national has not even left the 26 counties or has working/economic links to another EU State as seen in Carpenter v UK. THerefore, they don't fall within the scope of what the EU says about free movement and family reunification.

In those cases they fall strictly within domestic law, like ANY OTHER COUNTRY. The problem though is, as you all note, domestic law in other countries does not discriminate and it treats its own national's family rights with respect to their family rights. However, especially when it involved illegal immigrants, the ECtHR has being very harsh over the years to applicants from other countries.

Point here, the principles of EU law as seen in the free movement do not apply.

With regard to the concept of EU citizenship, that is merely (though important) addition/supplement to one's already existing citizenship. Unless the EU has jurisdiction, it will not override national law. So again, EU law is not applicaple so your argument is a non starter.

unless of course singh or carpenter applies.

[9jeirean]

Does Surinder Singh apply in Ireland?

Yes.

Can you provide link please? Many thanks

[Ben]

Does Surinder Singh apply in Ireland?

Yes.

Can you provide link please? Many thanks

ECJ Case C-370/90.

[9jeirean]

Does Surinder Singh apply in Ireland?

Yes.

Can you provide link please? Many thanks

ECJ Case C-370/90.

Thanks Ben. it would be interesting to see how a Surinder Singh application fits in with this Stamp 4 to Stamp 3 shenanigans.

[Ben]

Thanks Ben. it would be interesting to see how a Surinder Singh application fits in with this Stamp 4 to Stamp 3 shenanigans.

I would assume that, if Singh provisions apply, the family member of an Irish citizen is treated equally to the family member of a Union citizen.

Although I see what you mean. The spouse of an Irish citizen normally receives Stamp 4 immediately, by presenting themselves (together), to their local GNIB office, with their passports and marriage cert.

If the 1st June change goes ahead, it puts the spouse of a Union citizen in a less favourable position than the spouse of an Irish citizen. This contravenes § 24 of the Directive.

[9jeirean]

Thanks Ben. it would be interesting to see how a Surinder Singh application fits in with this Stamp 4 to Stamp 3 shenanigans.

I would assume that, if Singh provisions apply, the family member of an Irish citizen is treated equally to the family member of a Union citizen.

Although I see what you mean. The spouse of an Irish citizen normally receives Stamp 4 immediately, by presenting themselves (together), to their local GNIB office, with their passports and marriage cert.

If the 1st June change goes ahead, it puts the spouse of a Union citizen in a less favourable position than the spouse of an Irish citizen. This contravenes § 24 of the Directive.

It would also put one Irish citizen in less favorable position than the other wouldn't it? Even when they both have non EU spouses. Too many geniuses work for INIS I tell you

[IrishTom]

If this goes to the european courts and Ireland loses, is the state looking at a hefty fine?

[kabuki]

If this goes to the european courts and Ireland loses, is the state looking at a hefty fine?

In another post about this, someone stated that it should be handled by the Irish Courts without ever going to the EU court. If that doesn't happen, Ireland is really shooting themselves in the foot.

[acme4242]

walrusgumble, If I understand correct, your only point in all you wrote was that
"the principles of EU law as seen in the free movement do not apply" ?

Well, Unless there is a link with another EU state, either by Dual
citizenship or by exercising a treaty right, an Irish Citizen may
not claim EU privileges granted under EU jurisdiction.

However this does not prevent Ireland itself, under its own jurisdiction
from implementing equality and justice. And granting these EU privileges
to Irish Citizens in purely internal situations. Similar to how Italy does it.
When Ireland decides to discriminate against Irish Citizens in purely
internal situations, and treat their own citizens worse, this is called
reverse discrimination, and this is unfair and unjust.

The EU rights that are denied to Irish Citizens and their family by this
reverse discrimination include rights to travel, rights to family
reunification, and the right not to be discriminated against.

Furthermore, walrusgumble, please note, Ireland is one of the few
states in the EU, that implements such reverse discrimination against its own.
The EU states that implement reverse discrimination tend to
be Old Empire states such as the Britain, Germany, Denmark, Holland,
I guess for the historical reason that they didn't want their new
coloured subjects coming back to the motherland.

Whereas, countries that look after their own, tend to be countries
with a long emigration history such as Italy.
Ireland has switched. And this betrayal involved quite a bit of lies.
http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wo ... odonoghue/

The reverse discrimination which we now have, did not get legislative approval because
of all these lies and deceit.