Training as NHS Doctor restriction

[bym007]

Hi,

I am current in Tier-1 PSW with my wife and baby in UK at the moment, and
looking to change into Tier-1 General. My wife is a doctor from Pakistan, and planning to get into the NHS system after giving Plab examinations later this year.

I understand that by giving PLAB exam, and joining a NHS trust as a JHO (Junior House Officer) or Foundation year 1 training officer, she will be undergoing "Doctor in Training" program. Is this correct ?

While reading the Tier-1 General policy guidelines, I have come across a clause, which restricts people to work as a Doctor/Dentist in training in this visa category. There is a restriction on my passports currently on "Doctor/Dentist in Training".

Can someone advice me, how can my wife work in the UK in the NHS ?

Many thanks.

[ep]

She cann't work as doctor on a training post on Tier 1 (or as Tier 1 dependent) unless she gets ILR or Nationality. The only exception to this rule would be a training post where there were not enough candidates from EU/ old Tier 1 holders (pre Feb 2008).
Looking at competition ratios for FY programme for last year, there were still vacant posts in lost of areas of UK.

In short, she should be able to get post as FY doctor while on Tier 1 dependent but after finishing that she may need to work on non training post (preferably in research if she is career oriented) till she gets ILR or visa rules change in her favour.

[bym007]

Since we are living in London at the moment, and get to know from different doctors in local hospitals that they have vacant seats, we understand that they will take her on, if her visa issue is sorted.

However, the situation you have raised where they do not have enough candidates applyinf from UK or EU is possible in remote rural areas, and very unlikely to happen in London.

Correct me if I am wrong?

[ep]

We do have vacant posts in different areas but those posts are ment for slightly senior docors (namely middle grades). My understanding is that there are no vacant FY posts in and arround London area but I may be wrong. Likelyhood of getting FY post in London would be very low.



http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/p ... cuments#cr

[geriatrix]

The only exception to this rule would be a training post where there were not enough candidates from EU/ old Tier 1 holders (pre Feb 2008).

There is no such exception in the immigration rules. Tier 1 (General) migrants and their dependents cannot work in training posts (doctors / dentists) even if there are (training) posts available that have not been filled up by UK/EU citizens. The only exceptions to this rule are when:
1. the applicant has obtained bachelors degree in medicine from a UK institution, or
2. has been granted leave to enter / remain and is not subject to any condition restricting their employment, and has been employed during that leave as a Doctor or Dentist in Training,

Read immigration rules 245D(d)(iii) and 245Z(b)(iii).


regards

[bym007]

So am I right in understanding that unless she moves to ILR or British Citizenship, she cannot train in the UK as a doctor?

Are there any doctors here, who could perhaps tell me if there is another possible route of entry into the NHS system apart from training in FY ?

Many thanks....

[renzokuken]

[quote="bym007"]So am I right in understanding that unless she moves to ILR or British Citizenship, she cannot train in the UK as a doctor?

Are there any doctors here, who could perhaps tell me if there is another possible route of entry into the NHS system apart from training in FY ?

Many thanks....[/quote

Your wife can work as staff/career grade doctor in NHS

[bym007]

[quote="renzokuken"Your wife can work as staff/career grade doctor in NHS[/quote]

I did not understand what is a staff or career grade doctor ? Could you explain a tiny bit please?

[geriatrix]

We do have vacant posts in different areas but those posts are ment for slightly senior docors (namely middle grades). My understanding is that there are no vacant FY posts in and arround London area but I may be wrong. Likelyhood of getting FY post in London would be very low.



http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/p ... cuments#cr

FY posts are training posts, so OP's dependent is not (and will not be) eligible to apply.

regards

[geriatrix]

Your wife can work as staff/career grade doctor in NHS

I did not understand what is a staff or career grade doctor ? Could you explain a tiny bit please?

These are non-training posts in the NHS that your dependent may be able to apply for .. as a Tier 1 dependent.

regards

[renzokuken]

I did not understand what is a staff or career grade doctor ? Could you explain a tiny bit please?

Beside training posts, there is another route of employment with NHS called staff/career/trust grade post. This is route usually filled by overseas trained specialist doctors as not so many UK doctors willing to take this route, because there is no/little opportunity to become a full consultant. The highest you can achieve in this route is associate specialist.

[ep]

Thanks Sushdmehta, the links are enlightening.

People can still be appointed to training posts (see link below) if there were no suitable UK/ on ILR/ EU candidates. Extrapolating that, FY posts are training posts and can be filled by people requiring Tier 2 (given that all Tier 2 requirements are filled)

As I said earlier (link in my previous post) that not all FY post are fill able especially outside London and Southeast area.

http://www.londondeanery.ac.uk/var/recr ... recruiting

Somebody mentioned to my yesterday ( I have asked for written evidence from him) that people on Tier 1 (or their dependents) could be given exemption from applying for Tier 2 if they were appointed to a training post fulfilling all Tier 2 requirements.

In my opinion, problem will arise after FY when virtually (but not exclusively) all training posts (CT1 and onwards) are filled by candidates who have right to work in UK. In such situation doctor (on Tier 1 etc) would be able to work in non training pots ( there are plenty of them around) till they get ILR/ Naturalization.

I was under the impression that holders of Tier 1 (or their dependents), from before Feb 2008, were eligible to apply for training posts in UK at par with other eligible candidates. But, there seems to be a new clause which only enables people on such visa (pre feb 2008 Tier 1/ HSMP) to continue in training posts if they already were in training posts.

[ep]

Don't worry about non training posts after FY program, there are plenty of them around in different specialties.

For OP:

Options for your wife depend upon her prior clinical experience and whether she needs to do FY post.

[geriatrix]

Thanks Sushdmehta, the links are enlightening.

People can still be appointed to training posts (see link below) if there were no suitable UK/ on ILR/ EU candidates. Extrapolating that, FY posts are training posts and can be filled by people requiring Tier 2 (given that all Tier 2 requirements are filled)

As I said earlier (link in my previous post) that not all FY post are fill able especially outside London and Southeast area.

http://www.londondeanery.ac.uk/var/recr ... recruiting

Somebody mentioned to my yesterday ( I have asked for written evidence from him) that people on Tier 1 (or their dependents) could be given exemption from applying for Tier 2 if they were appointed to a training post fulfilling all Tier 2 requirements.

In my opinion, problem will arise after FY when virtually (but not exclusively) all training posts (CT1 and onwards) are filled by candidates who have right to work in UK. In such situation doctor (on Tier 1 etc) would be able to work in non training pots ( there are plenty of them around) till they get ILR/ Naturalization.

I was under the impression that holders of Tier 1 (or their dependents), from before Feb 2008, were eligible to apply for training posts in UK at par with other eligible candidates. But, there seems to be a new clause which only enables people on such visa (pre feb 2008 Tier 1/ HSMP) to continue in training posts if they already were in training posts.

I never said that people cannot be appointed to training posts. What I stated is that Tier 1 (General) migrants and their dependents cannot be ... unless either of the two exceptions are fulfilled. And this statement is based on immigration rules, the link to which has already been provided.

The OP has mentioned clearly that he is on Tier 1 (PSW) and wanting to change to Tier 1 (General), with his partner as a dependent. And you have been responding to the query by (until the most recent post) suggesting that the (Tier 1) dependent could work in training posts if the positions were not filled by UK/EU citizens. Which, as you are now aware, is not correct!


regards

[ep]

I retreat

Just to clarify again, I totally agreed that Tier 1 could not be appointed to training posts as doctors in UK at par with local candidates except those who had been granted Tier 1 before Feb 2008 (I am one of those people).

Now, from the links you have provided, it seems that the guidelines have been updated again in April 10 baring all Tier 1 holders (including those who were granted leave as HSMP/Tier 1 before Feb 2008) from getting training posts at par with local candidates. The only exception would be those already in training posts (majority of my friends are still in this category) or foreign graduates of UK medical schools.

[renzokuken]

foreign graduates of UK medical schools.

If I remember correctly foreign graduates of UK medical school can only enter Foundation training posts (FY1-FY2). After that the same immigration limitation applied

[ep]

Please see document (CHANGES TO TIER 1 AND TIER 2 OF THE POINTS-BASED SYSTEM STATEMENT OF POLICY) on following link:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... -t2-and-ir

DOCTORS IN TRAINING
25. We will amend the restriction on working as a doctor in training in all four Tier 1 categories, following discussions with the Department of Health and other health sector stakeholders. The restriction is intended to prevent overseas doctors from depriving resident doctors of training placements.

26. We will extend the restriction so that it also applies to working as a dentist in training. We will also amend the restriction so that it does not apply to anyone who has a degree in medicine or dentistry from a recognised UK institution. This will ensure that doctors and dentists who have studied in the UK will have open access to training opportunities to further their careers here.

27. The above changes will also apply to dependants of Points-Based System migrants.

28. We will also make a small change to the Tier 1 (Post-Study Work) points table. Currently the table only allows applicants to apply if they have obtained their degree within the last 12 months. This prevents graduates of UK medical schools from using this route on completion of their NHS Foundation Programme, as their degrees will have been obtained more than 12 months previously.

29. We will amend the table so that doctors can switch into Tier 1 (Post-Study Work) within 12 months of completing the Foundation Programme. This will allow a migrant with a UK medical degree to undertake their Foundation Programme training in Tier 4 and then switch into Tier 1 (Post-Study Work) as they begin speciality training or training as a GP. Following two years in Tier 1 (Post-Study Work), they will then be able to switch into either Tier 1 (General) or Tier 2 (General), depending on their level of earnings.

30. We will also allow doctors who have leave in the old permit-free Postgraduate Doctor and Dentist category to switch into Tier 1 (Post-Study Work) on completion of the Foundation Programme.