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ILR applications from Zimbabweans on grounds of UK ancestry

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ILR applications from Zimbabweans on grounds of UK ancestry

Post by John » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:26 am

The UK Government Minister made this written statement yesterday :
The Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Nationality (Mr. Tony McNulty):

As a result of intelligence received in 2001 and July 2004 suggesting systematic fraud in applications for UK Ancestry from Zimbabwean nationals, consideration of such applications was suspended pending further investigation.

In the light of continued evidence of fraudulent Zimbabwean applications for indefinite leave to remain in the UK on grounds of UK ancestry lodged prior to 25 October 2004, I have made an authorisation under section 19D of the Race Relations Act 1976 of six months' duration. This authorisation enables staff in the Immigration and Nationality Directorate to subject these applications to more rigorous investigation than applications from persons of other nationalities, for the purpose of detecting fraudulent applications.

We will review the continued need for this authorisation before its expiry. In addition, the Independent Race Monitor appointed under section 19E of the Race Relations Act 1976 (as amended) will submit a report to the Home Secretary for submission to Parliament on the likely effect of authorisations made by Ministers and on how they are operated in practice by officials.

A copy of the authorisation has been placed in the Library of both Houses of Parliament.
Last edited by John on Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dawie » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:22 am

Any idea what kind of fraud is ocurring? I assume the fraud in question must relate the original application for UK ancestry upon which the ILR is being applied for, and not for the actual ILR application itself.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by bbdivo » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:27 am

Yes that is an interesting point, I thought the initial fraud was at the point of getting the ancestry visa at the High Commission in Zimbabwe. Unless it has been at both points, i.e. getting the ancestry visa and then subsequently getting the ILR once in the UK?

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Post by John » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:28 am

I know nothing about this apart from what the Minister has posted.

My guess is the same as yours. They suspect that the original Ancestry visa application was fraudulent, so they are giving themselves a second opportunity to investigate before granting any ILR.

So it is not so much the ILR itself but whether the original visa should have been granted at all, and if not, clearly ILR will get refused.
John

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Post by Dawie » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:38 am

Yes, I doubt the actual ILR applications are fraudulent as it's actually quite difficult to make a fraudulent ILR application because the proof required is based on your previous visa/work permit applications. Either you qualify for ILR or you don't.

However I would imagine (I obviously don't know for sure) that it's actually quite easy to make a fraudulent UK ancestry visa application because the British Consulate processing the application has to rely on the authenticity of documents such as birth and marriage certificates that are extremely easy to forge and very difficult to verify especially in a country in Zimbabwe's situation.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by tt » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:26 pm

Sorry. Came across this and have a query.

How can you get an ancestry visa as a Zimbabwean citizen, if Zimbabwe is NOT a member of the Commonwealth?

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Post by John » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:41 pm

Does this webpage answer the point? Clearly it was in the Commonwealth until 07.12.03.
John

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Post by tt » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:46 pm

No, not really.

Because I thought the visa only applied to Commonwealth citizens, but not past ones.

South Africa was a Commonwealth country, but when it left in the early 1960s, I don't believe its citizens could apply for the ancestry visa any longer. I don't know what happens now it is a member again.

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Post by bbdivo » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:10 pm

tt wrote:No, not really.

Because I thought the visa only applied to Commonwealth citizens, but not past ones.

South Africa was a Commonwealth country, but when it left in the early 1960s, I don't believe its citizens could apply for the ancestry visa any longer. I don't know what happens now it is a member again.
With regards to British nationality law, Zimbabwe is still considered a commonwealth country (even though it has been kicked out, I mean withdrew from the commonwealth organisation itself), you can see the list
here:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en ... tries.html

As a result Zimbabwean citizens are also still allowed to apply for Working Holiday Visas. (which is meant for commonwealth citizens) and can vote in the UK if long term residents, etc.

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Post by tt » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:22 pm

bbivo. Thanks for that link.

Schedule 3 of the British Nationality Act 1981 lists those who are considered "commonwealth citizens", and this may or may not bear semblance with the reality of what is the Commonwealth. Infact, the list could be of any countries at all (in theory), Commonwealth or not.

When South Africa left the Commonwealth, it no longer was in the definition of commonwealth citizen until it was readmitted in 1994. On the other hand, Zimbabweans remain commonwealth citizens, despite Zimbabwe leaving the Commonwealth in 2003.

I guess it comes down to Home Sec policy, and wishing to look after the rights of the whites from what was Southern Rhodesia, which I guess is kind of understandable.

And what would you do with all those Zimbabweans presently in the UK otherwise?

Good news for any other Commonwealth country wishing to out from the organisation, isn't it (Mozambique, Cameroon, Fiji, Pakistan?).

Anyway, experience shows that the "departed" country normally comes back.

Well, except for Ireland!

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Post by ppron747 » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:56 pm

tt wrote:bbivo. Thanks for that link.

Schedule 3 of the British Nationality Act 1981 lists those who are considered "commonwealth citizens", and this may or may not bear semblance with the reality of what is the Commonwealth. Infact, the list could be of any countries at all (in theory), Commonwealth or not.
I don't understand the point you are making here, tt. It isn't just some random list. It started out as section 1(3) of the British Nationality Act 1948, and listed the original members of the Commonwealth (apart from the UK itself) - Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Canada, Ceylon, Southern Rhodesia and Newfoundland. As former British colonies and protectorates, etc became independent, if they chose to join the Commonwealth, they were added to the list, and if they didn't, they weren't. I don't know whether South Africa was expelled from the organisation, or whether it left of its own accord (or perhaps a bit of both), but it was deleted from section 1(3) in 1962, and, as you say, not reinstated until 1994. Given the nature of the minority government of South Africa for most of that time, I don't think this was a bad thing, was it? Otherwise, the list has been pretty stable, and nearly all of the changes have been additions. An exception was Pakistan, which withdrew in 1972, because of the UK's (and other Commmonwealth countries') recognition of Bangladesh as a separate, independent, Commmonwealth country.
When South Africa left the Commonwealth, it no longer was in the definition of commonwealth citizen until it was readmitted in 1994. On the other hand, Zimbabweans remain commonwealth citizens, despite Zimbabwe leaving the Commonwealth in 2003.

I guess it comes down to Home Sec policy, and wishing to look after the rights of the whites from what was Southern Rhodesia, which I guess is kind of understandable.
Not just whites, tt. The fact is that it is the people of Zimbabwe who would lose out if Zim were to be deleted from Schedule 3 - not the government. It is true that most (but not all...) of the people benefitting from the right of abode in the UK, and UK Ancestry visa provisions would be white, but WHM is available to people without UK connections, and there are several thousand Zimbabweans of differing races serving in the British armed forces - which would not be possible if they were not Commonwealth citizens.
And what would you do with all those Zimbabweans presently in the UK otherwise?
Yes - black and white
Good news for any other Commonwealth country wishing to out from the organisation, isn't it (Mozambique, Cameroon, Fiji, Pakistan?).
I don't know what this means, either. Neither Mozambique nor Cameroon had ever been Commonwealth countries until they applied to join in 1995. Are they thinking of leaving? Fiji allowed its membership to lapse, but it was always hoped that, after a period, they would rejoin, and they did, about ten years later. As with Zimbabwe, deleting Fiji from the list would have disadvantaged the people, not the government.
Anyway, experience shows that the "departed" country normally comes back.
Well, except for Ireland!
Was Ireland ever a member of the Commonwealth as a separate entity form the UK? It was certainly never listed as one in either the 1948 or 1981 Acts...
|| paul R.I.P, January, 2007
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Post by tt » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:07 pm

Which makes the whole thing justifiable. :?

Wasn't Ireland a member of the Commonwealth (or whatever it was called at that point) once?

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Post by JAJ » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:11 pm

tt wrote:Which makes the whole thing justifiable. :?

Wasn't Ireland a member of the Commonwealth (or whatever it was called at that point) once?

The Irish Free State was a Dominion from 6 December 1922 until 18 April 1949.

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Post by ppron747 » Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:50 am

tt wrote:Which makes the whole thing justifiable. :?
Which makes what whole thing justifiable?
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Post by tt » Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:40 am

The policy decision. I think the points you make are strong ones - why punish the people when the government is the problem. I guess in South Africa's case, it was decided the people WERE the problem, or at least those who would have benefitted from the British Nationality Act and its predecessors.

It's likely that Zimbabwe will return to the fold at some point, so why create a hiatus, might be another point.

I think Ireland, as JAJ says, was independent of the UK from 1922 as a Dominion (along the lines of Canada and Australia), and it was a member of the Commonwealth. The later "Republic of Ireland" did not apply for re-admittance after becoming a republic in 1949.

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Post by tt » Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:48 am

Another interesting point is that by retaining "commonwealth citizen" status, it looks as if Zimbabweans have kept their "right of abode" rights which apply to those born prior to 1983 with a UK born mother, or who were adopted before 1983 by a UK born parent or were a woman married before 1983 to a man who had right of abode?

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Post by JAJ » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:23 am

tt wrote:The policy decision. I think the points you make are strong ones - why punish the people when the government is the problem. I guess in South Africa's case, it was decided the people WERE the problem, or at least those who would have benefitted from the British Nationality Act and its predecessors.

It's likely that Zimbabwe will return to the fold at some point, so why create a hiatus, might be another point.

I think Ireland, as JAJ says, was independent of the UK from 1922 as a Dominion (along the lines of Canada and Australia), and it was a member of the Commonwealth. The later "Republic of Ireland" did not apply for re-admittance after becoming a republic in 1949.

If a future democratic Zimbabwe government were to decide the country's future lay outside the Commonwealth, then that would have to be respected and then the various Commonwealth privileges could be withdrawn.

That's basically what the Irish did, although for political reasons they were allowed to "have their cake and eat it".

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Post by ppron747 » Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:39 pm

tt wrote:Another interesting point is that by retaining "commonwealth citizen" status, it looks as if Zimbabweans have kept their "right of abode" rights which apply to those born prior to 1983 with a UK born mother, or who were adopted before 1983 by a UK born parent or were a woman married before 1983 to a man who had right of abode?
Yes
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Post by penanglad » Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:50 pm

Zimbabwe is not an isolated case. When Fiji's membership lapsed after the first republican coup in 1987, it was not removed from schedule 3 either. It is basically up to the Government (and Parliament) of the day whether they decide to make the change to UK law or not.

In Zimbabwe's case it is perfectly understandable why the UK would not want to disadvantage people who are already being persecuted by their government.

There are other acts which are usually updated to reflect Commonwealth membership - e.g. the Visiting Forces Act 1952, Naval Discipline Act 1957, etc. All these still list Zimbabwe.

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Post by Dawie » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:03 pm

In Zimbabwe's case it is perfectly understandable why the UK would not want to disadvantage people who are already being persecuted by their government.
Really? Is that why the Home Office had to be challenged in a court of law in order to prevent them from deporting failed Zimbabwean asylum seekers who quite clearly were in danger of being tortured on their return to Zimbabwe? The UK couldn't care less about Zimbabwe or it's problems and I think it's quite naive to think that Zimbabwe is still on the list in Schedule 3 of the British Nationality Act 1981 out of some sort of "concern" for the welfare of Zimbabwean citizens.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by ppron747 » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:22 pm

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dawie. Naivety isn't a trait that I had previously identified in myself. ..

Hard though it might be for you to believe, the enforcement section of the Home Office isn't the whole of the UK government. The fact is that the only people to benefit from Zimbabwe's not having been deleted from Schedule 3 of the BN 1981 are citizens of Zimbabwe.
Last edited by ppron747 on Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dawie » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:36 pm

Hehe, don't worry, I don't mean to imply that the people of the UK don't care.

The simple fact of the matter is that the UK government has not exactly been welcoming to Zimbabwean asylum seekers, whether at the Home Office or any other branch of government. And by and large it has turned a blind eye to what is going on there, despite some rather punative measures such as travel bans for some Zimbabwean officials.

Actually the main point I'm trying to make is that the inclusion of Zimbabwe in Schedule 3 by and large only benefits white Zimbabweans of British ancestry for the following reasons:

Those who would benefit from the ancestry visa are almost exclusively (although not entirely) white.

AND

Those who would benefit from the working holiday visa are ALSO almost exclusively white as these are the only group of Zimbabweans who can afford to show the necessary funds available in order to get this sort of visa.

I know this all sounds rather cynical but I'm afraid these are the facts on the ground. The inclusion of Zimbabwe on Schedule 3 does not help ordinary Zimbabweans who are mainly black (and therefore have no claim to British ancestry) and poor (and therefore cannot obtain a working holiday visa).
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by Smit » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:57 pm

I disagree to a certain point with dawie, if the UK visa regime is so anti black Zimbabweans, why are there are a considerable number of such people in the UK, starting from Makosi?

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Post by Dawie » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:10 pm

Because they come over here on work permits (mainly as nurses) which they do not get from being on Schedule 3.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by tvt » Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:10 pm

BTW,

Are there any whites left in Zimbabwe apart from some elderly farmers?
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